Wikipedia:Featured article review/archive/September 2007

1 Kept status
2 Removed status

Kept status

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept 18:42, 30 September 2007.

Treaty of Devol

Review commentary

Alerted main contributor (Adam Bishop) and four WikiProjects listed on article talk page.

Nominating due to criterion 1c, no inline cites. ~~--RelHistBuff 15:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)~~

Not sure if the above nomination was ever progressed. Renominating for the same reason. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 13:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I did nominate the article, but at the time there was an overload of articles in the FAR process so I withdrew it temporarily. Since it has been renominated, I will give more details about the 1c criterion problem. The prose contain certain passive constructions such as

It was generally understood
It was argued that
It is notable

These should reworded and/or cited. Also the quote should have a cite. There are clearly elements of a historian's analysis such as

The Crusaders seem to have felt
perhaps, he felt he had lost
It may have been written
The treaty appears to be
the proceedings must have been
he may have also wanted

These should be cited to give credit to the historian that did the analysis. Otherwise it looks like original research. --RelHistBuff 13:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Are the notifications listed at the top old or new; has anyone notified? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I withdrew it before I notified anyone so I assume that OpenToppedBus made the notifications. --RelHistBuff 15:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that was me - notified yesterday. --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 08:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Aside from citations, the article needs a significant ce, and a more substantial lead. But there is work going on. Ceoil 21:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations (1c) and prose (1a). Marskell 09:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep the good work! Marskell 09:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! We try!--Yannismarou 16:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep: Good save! It’s a completely different article now. I see some minor issues, but not enough to defeature. --RelHistBuff 16:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep if MOS is followed WRT end-periods of non-sentence captions, and en dashes for page ranges. Tony (talk) 11:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept 10:35, 28 September 2007.

The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)

Review commentary

Messages left for Ibaranoff24 (top contributor and nominator), Uthanc, and Josiah Rowe and the Middle-earth, Films, and American Animation WikiProjects.

Original review at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Lord of the Rings (1978 film).

To me, this article fails 1a, 2a, and possibly 3. I opposed the article's FA candidacy, but for some reason my opinion was overlooked and the article was promoted. Just looking at the lead, writing problems are everywhere:

"J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings is a 1978 animated fantasy film directed by Ralph Bakshi. It is an adaptation of the first half of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. Set in Middle-earth, the film follows a group of Hobbits, Elves, Men, Dwarves and Wizards who form a Fellowship and embark on a quest to destroy the One Ring made by the Dark Lord Sauron, and with it, ensure his destruction. The screenplay was written by Peter S. Beagle. An earlier draft was written by Chris Conkling, but not used.[2] The film features the voice work of, among others, William Squire, John Hurt, Michael Graham Cox and Anthony Daniels."

I know they're incredibly popular, but a quick explanation of what Tolkien's work is would be nice.
Is "with it" in the third sentence necessary?
The fifth sentence feels like it's just dropped in there for no reason.
"Among others"? Is that necessary?

2nd paragraph: "Director Ralph Bakshi first encountered Tolkien's writing in the early days in his career, and made several attempts to produce The Lord of the Rings as an animated film before successfully gaining funding from producer Saul Zaentz and distributor United Artists.[3] The film was produced mostly utilizing rotoscoping, wherein many scenes were shot in live-action first and then traced onto animation cels.[3] The film is notable for featuring some of the most extensive use of the technique. Although the film received a mixed reaction from critics, and was deemed to be a flop by the original distributors, who refused to fund a sequel that would have covered the remainder of the story, the film was a success,[4][5] and sparked new interest in Tolkien's writing, inspiring the production of several further adaptations of the story."

"first encountered"-don't need first
"early days in his career" of his career
"mostly utilizing rotoscoping"-how about just using rotoscoping?
The final sentence goes on way too long.

And that's just the lead. The Plot section, also badly written, feels more like the back cover of a book than an encyclopedia covering a synopsis of the film. Example:"In the early years of the Second Age of Middle-earth, the Elven-smiths forged nineteen Rings of Power for mortal Men, the Dwarf-lords, and the tall Elf-kings. Eventually the Dark Lord Sauron made the One Ring to rule them all. As the Last Alliance of Men and Elves fell beneath his power, the Ring fell into the hands of Prince Isildur of the mighty kings from across the sea."

Differences from the Book is just a ton of stubby paragraphs loosely jumbled together, instead of tight paragraphs describing major differences. Some of them don't even seem that noteworthy: "The hobbits' first encounter with a Ringwraith is treated differently: in the novel, Frodo hides separately from the other hobbits;[9] in the film, together with them." Cast section is just a list of blue links that mostly go nowhere. Why does (voice) have to go after every single entry? Can't it just be said, "The film featured the voice talents of..." Pre-production and Production have some text, but they're about half taken directly from quotes. I can understand using quotes to strongly emphasize an important point, but they should not tell the whole story and be used as much as they are here, that's Wikipedia's job. Reception feels a little small, although I can understand if there aren't many sources for this film. But using Rotten Tomatoes's percentage for an old film like this doesn't say much.

Images: The two in Pre-Production don't look like they add much, and of the dual images in Legacy, the bottom one is kinda dark to really tell anything from it.

I feel strongly that more work has to be done (and I'd be glad to help) to make this article of featured quality.--Dark Kubrick 19:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions at the top of WP:FAR and use {{subst:FARMessage|The Lord of the Rings (1978 film)}} to notify the other top contributors, Uthanc and Josiah Rowe. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about not notifying those two others, they are now aware.--Dark Kubrick 21:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Dark Kubrick that more work needs to be done and it needs to be done ASAP. Greg Jones II 03:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment — I reverted the page to an earlier version and made a few tweaks. (Ibaranoff24 16:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC))
- Comment — The article is currently listed at requests for proofreading. (Ibaranoff24 16:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC))
Comment — I expanded the article a bit and I really think it's better than when it was passed as a featured article. It's not as detailed about the process of making the film as I would like it to be, but it's not like I have a whole lot of resources I can access regarding this film. With Fritz the Cat and Coonskin, I was able to find quite a lot detailing the production of these two films, but it's not the case with Lord of the Rings. I still think it's better than before, and I hope it'll still be featured. It can only get better. The "differences from the book" section is still pesky, but that will get fixed during the copyediting process. (Ibaranoff24 18:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC))

I'd like to say that you and Uthanc are doing a good job; the article has certainly improved already, and you've got plenty of time to make more improvements. I'm not too worried about detail of the production of the film; I sympthasize with you on how hard it is to find good and reliable sources for old films like this one. I'm more concerned about the presentation of the material you have in the article now, which is very good anyway. But could the Pre-production and Production sections be merged? And while the quotes don't stand out from the text anymore, there are still many of them throughout the sections. Sometimes they tell the story for the article, sometimes they add unnecessary detail (ex. the last quote in Pre-production). But regardless, keep up the good work.--Dark Kubrick 21:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment - If there are any more issues left, this FAR won't go to FARC. Greg Jones II 02:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, Greg Jones...if there are any more issues left, it should go to FARC...Anyway, unfortunately the article seems to be failing criterion 1c now:

On ref #5, the link no longer goes to the article's title, but just a main index for current films.
On ref #19, IMDB trivia is used twice. IMDB's trivia is not a reliable source.
Ref #20 is supposed to be referencing this statement: "Much of the film used live-action footage which was then rotoscoped to produce an animated look", but the ref is just pictures of the live-action shoot. How does this prove it was rotoscoped?
Ref #21 is referencing this sentence: "while Sharon Baird served as the performance model for Frodo Baggins." but the ref is just a picture of Bakshi and Baird grinning for a picture. How does that verify anything!?!?
Ref #25 is a link to Google Video. I'm guessing that there was a video of the reference, but apparently it's been removed. Regardless, I believe the video shouldn't be used, but I'm not sure.
Refs #27-29 use an interview posted on a website forum. This is unreliable as well, no matter who conducted the interview.

Apparently, more work is required than I thought.--Dark Kubrick 01:40, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

- Comment — The official Ralph Bakshi website is a more than acceptable source. Information from the director himself is reliable. (Ibaranoff24 15:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

I assume you're referring to information from refs #27-29. Yes, information from the director is certainly the most reliable information, but the fact that it was conducted by and posted on a message board makes it unreliable.--Dark Kubrick 18:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's the director's official website. I haven't had any objections to using it as a reference before. (Ibaranoff24 20:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC))

It's the forum on the director's official website. Information from that board is not official, as anyone can make up or alter anything there. Could someone else chime in on this discussion?--Dark Kubrick 21:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The website was put together by Bakshi's daughter. The interview was conducted by someone who works for the Bakshis, and is an administer on the forum, not some random fanboy. While it is true that on a message board, anyone can make up things, it is 100% unlikely that the Bakshis would allow false information or fake interviews to be passed off as legit. Things are a little more in control there than you think. (Ibaranoff24 14:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC))

I think forums are ok if it's the actual person, like how Roberto Orci chimed in on the Transformers message boards. Alientraveller 10:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

To weigh in, I'm not confident that forum references meet the reliable source criteria. First of all, the information isn't published (as it is a message on a forum) anywhere that would make the verifiability absolute, such as coverage by The New York Times. It's not immediately verifiable that the information on the forum is appropriate; there's no telling what kind of editorial oversight exists to maintain the quality of information. I would suggest replacing the references with something that would be indisputable. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 11:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I agree that this article has some issues that need to be addressed. Both "Omissions" and "Modifications" do not seem to have any real-world context established; like Dark Kubrick mentioned above, what is the encyclopedic value of noting that Frodo hid with the other Hobbits in one medium, but not the other? In adaptations of the source materials, there will usually be a shopping list of changes, ranging from minor to major; the most relevant ones are the ones that have been pointed out independently, instead by the editors themselves. Also, the Reception section seems severely lacking -- there is no detailed critical reaction, positive or negative, to the film. What did the critics like about it, what did they dislike about it? The section should be expanded. This is just a preliminary glance, and these items seem major enough to need addressing. There may be more, like what Dark Kubrick has pointed out, so this is just a start. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: When this was a Featured Article Candidate, I expressed major concerns about the following claim, which is still included in the lead: "The film...was deemed to be a flop by the original distributors, who refused to fund a sequel that would have covered the remainder of the story. However, the film was a success..." This still makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would United Artists "deem" the film a flop if it was a success? Is there a reliable source or reference that notes distributor representatives proclaiming the film to be a failure despite the fact that it turned a profit? If the film made money for them, wouldn't they naturally finance sequels instead of "refusing" to do so? The way this has been written raises many more questions than it answers. Also, the two references which claim the film was in fact a success appear questionable to me. According to the book's index, Maltin's Of Mice and Magic mentions Bakshi and Lord of the Rings only once, on page 342, and the text on that particular page says nothing about whether the film made money or not. Also the referenced New York Times article [1] simply notes, regarding Wizards and LOR, that "a fair sum of money poured in at the box office." Neither one of these references really seem to note definitively that the film was a box office success. I think the claim that the film was both a flop and a success needs to be rethought/rephrased, with adequate sources provided. There may be other issues with this article, as the editors above have noted, but I haven't read beyond the lead paragraphs yet. However, I do agree with Erik that the "Reception" section seems to be amazingly skimpy.-Hal Raglan 01:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- I rewrote it to simply state that United Artists did not provide funding for a sequel. I remember Bakshi saying that the studio told him he flopped. I'm not sure what interview this was in. If someone can find a good source for the earlier statement, put the original sentence back in. I've only skimmed through Maltin's book in a store, and I don't actually own a copy, because there were only a couple of things that I found significant, so I chose to memorize those two facts rather than buy the book, but it's in there. It's at the end of the section on Bakshi. He says that Fritz the Cat and Lord of the Rings were the only two works in Bakshi's filmography in the 1970s that were significantly successful. (Ibaranoff24 06:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC))
  - I took the liberty of removing the part about the distributor "deeming the film a flop" as this was directly contradicted by the remark that the film was a success.-Hal Raglan 15:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Comments, completely unformatted blue-linked URL citations, and incomplete refs (for example, without a date for the New York Times article, how can it be found in a library?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I corrected the unformatted citations. I am not aware of an undated New York Times citation. (Ibaranoff24 03:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC))
  - I've found the citation you were referring to and I have corrected it. (Ibaranoff24 03:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC))

Comment- doesn't have that many references now. The sunder king 20:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

So...while substantial work has been done, the article still has a ways to go, and it's been more than two weeks. Move to FARC?--Dark Kubrick 16:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are prose (1a), LEAD (2a), and images (3). Marskell 19:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep — Article has been significantly improved since the FAR started. (Ibaranoff24 13:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC))

Remove-Yes, while the article has definitely improved a lot, and I'm grateful to all those who helped, it's still not FA material. What about the unreliable references used in Bakshi's message board forum, or the writing in the plot section (not to mention other parts of the article), and several unnecessary or unhelpful images, like the comparison image in Legacy where it's too dark in the bottom image to tell anything? If you don't agree with my objections, then post a reason for your disagreement, don't just ignore them!--Dark Kubrick 14:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Comment — The citations of Bakshi's website are not unreliable. And the images look fine to me. Perhaps your monitor is at a low brightness level. Reset it to the default levels. It should look fine. (Ibaranoff24 01:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC))

The citations to Bakshi's website's forum are unreliable as discussed above. And my monitor is not at a low brightness level; the picture itself is just too dark and murky to tell anything from in comparison to the above picture, even when you click on it.--Dark Kubrick 10:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Remove unless further work is done. The changes have been patchy. A comprehensive review was required. Here are random examples from the first section of what needs fixing:
- MOS breach—hyphen as interruptor (em dash required). Then we see a spaced em dash, which MOS does not prefer.
- "From the start, they are pursued by the Ringwraiths. Narrowly escaping them, they eventually come to Bree, where they meet"—"They" and "them" could render a multitude of meanings. Same here: "At Rivendell, Frodo is healed by its lord, Elrond. He meets ...". Needs an audit for fuzzy pronouns.
- "and he gets sicker"—it's not wrong, but "gets" sure does bring out the ugly side of English.
- "Frodo sets forth from Rivendell with eight companions: Gandalf; Aragorn and Boromir, son of the Steward of the land of Gondor; Legolas the Elf; ...". Sets out, surely. The second item is two people or one?
- In a continuous narrative, avoid "then". Weed it out.
- Caption period: MOS breach.

Cast: quadruple dots are ugly. Use spaced en dashes.

Avoid square brackets around ellipsis dots.

"Cartoony"?

Worth fixing. Tony 13:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment — The article's currently at Requests for proofreading. Much of the problems regarding writing and grammer should be corrected. I'm just curious, though, why do you consider the use of the word "cartoony" to be a problem if it's in a quote from someone involved with the production of the film? (Ibaranoff24 17:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC))

Remove until "Differences from the book" is removed or revised to have an encyclopedic bearing -- entries like the different colors of clothing are rather insipid. There needs to be more focus on why there were specific changes, which reduces the wide scope of differences generated by the adaptation of any source material into differences that have been covered by reliable sourcing. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 18:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Hi, I made some changes to help improve the article. You might want to take a look at them. (66.82.9.58 20:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC))

Comments "Bakshi is quoted as saying that he had "mixed feeling" about Jackson's adaptations, and he had not seen the films." Is that supposed to be mixed feelings? Also, instead of using the awkward passive voice there, why not just "Bakshi had mixed feelings..."? "And" doesn't seem to be the best conjunction there. Shouldn't it be "although" (since if he hadn't yet seen the films)? Finally, "Not has anyone sent me a bottle of wine..." <-- should that be "Nor"? Or if it's a direct citation and seems to be a typo, use "[Nor]" or "Not (sic)". 69.202.63.165 20:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment — Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 00:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC))
Keep. Most of Tony's items are trivial; they could, and should, have been fixed with much less effort than bringing them here. I see no objections to the substance; and the writing is no worse than, say, the recently promoted Augustus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Work needed, samples only. Undefined term in the lead: what is an "animation cel"? It needs to be defined or linked. No punctuation on sentence fragments in image captions, see WP:MOS. What makes http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/about.htm a reliable source? Why are solo years (1950s) and common terms known to most English speakers (like Spain, United States and English) linked (see WP:CONTEXT and WP:MOSLINK)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Comment — Done. (Ibaranoff24 06:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC))
Fixes needed - the lead needs work "Set in Middle-earth, the film follows a group of hobbits, elves, men, dwarves and wizards who form a Fellowship. They embark on a quest to destroy the One Ring made by the Dark Lord Sauron, and ensure his destruction." - needs to be reworded. Also, I'd put much of Screenwriting and development in past tense, not present and it could be expanded I'd have thought. eg noting that the Jackson film also removed Bombadil - putting it in context (if possible). Prose improves further on in article. I have to get off the keyboard now but might try to chip in later if time permits. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe sufficient work was done for a keep here and we've gotten to the microissues stage. The question we've always asked: does it have sufficient focus on the out-universe aspects. This does as near as I can tell. Marskell 10:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The article was kept 15:01, 24 September 2007.

Asperger syndrome

Review commentary

Notifications at WP Psychology, WP Medical Genetics, SandyGeorgia, RN and WP Medicine

previous FAR, 2005

previous FAR 2006

3rd FAR - 1st can be found here, 2nd can be found here.

Top of article lists issues with NPOV, factual accuracy, WP:SYN, confusing prose, and citation issues. I have no significant opinion on the article, and am not watchlisting this debate. I merely bring it here to let others have their say. Giggy ^Talk 01:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I've notified the relevant WikiProjects: [2][3][4] and top two editors of the article (since 3rd highest was an IP): [5][6]. Giggy ^Talk 01:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Giggy, if you nominate an article for FAR, you're supposed to take an interest in the process. You should watchlist it. Tony 06:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Watchlisted. Giggy ^Talk 23:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

According to Giggy (talk · contribs)'s talk page, s/he has left Wikipedia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So, how do you feel that affects the review? --Zeraeph 14:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't; it's just a reminder that we don't need to ping him/her for further input. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The issues with this article are daunting, and it has squeaked by FAR twice in bad shape. But, the timing of this FAR is most unfortunate, which the nominator could have realized by reading the talk page (maybe we should institute that suggestion that nominators must first raise issues on talk before nominating—I would have asked the nominator to give it a week to see how things proceed). Work has just begun, although it's not clear yet if the article will be stable or if reverts of attempts to address the deficiencies will continue. If work gets underway without edit warring, this review may need extended time (six weeks). If edit warring continues, then I suggest moving in a timely fashion to FARC. We now have the peer-reviewed literature necessary to rewrite the article, and several editors are helping, but the timing for me is terrible, as I'll be off-Wiki a lot over the next month. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Delist after FAR. Article has too many tags to be FA. I'd like to offer some suggestions to improve it, especially since my degree is in Psych, but I'm unfamiliar with the disputes. In the meantime, I think SandyGeorgia's idea is feasible. MrPrada 03:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Standard disclaimer, pls read the instructions at WP:FAR. Keep or Remove are not declared during review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The dispute is that the entire article needs to be written to be neutral, comprehensive, and factually accurate. We're almost halfway through, working from the bottom up (so the top and the lead are still most in need of work). Your ideas are welcome, as long as they are based on the highest-quality reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Could someone tell me why I see tags saying, "cite this quote" when there's a citation right next to the sentence? Am I just stupid or something?--Rmky87 22:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Because those sources don't appear to verify the text they are attached to; that is an issue throughout the article. If someone has the full-text of the journal reports, we need the quotes that supposedly verifies the text. Having seen a lot of journal reports on AS in the last week, I'm fairly certain most of that text can't be cited and overextends the results of the studies/reports. A lot of the text was developed as original research, with later attempts to retrofit citations to the text. There's a lot of synthesis (mostly in the lead), POV and OR (particularly in favor of successful, scientific adults while overlooking children struggling to become successful creative adults). We're going through section by section, verifying the text and rewriting to be certain the text is true to the sources. Once the text is rewritten, we will attempt consensus to 1) write a correct WP:LEAD that summarizes the entire article (it doesn't now) and 2) remove the POV, synthesis and OR from the lead. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have access to two full texts that look useful. The abstracts can be found here and here. Funny story: both of them say that Aspergians suck when it comes to visuospatial analysis. The full text of the first one looks much more useful, since it says that while verbal IQ is superior to performance IQ in Aspergians, high functioning autistics are the opposite. Whoever stuck that in this article (the Wikipedia one, that is) must be awfully confused. As you can see, the abstract says nothing of the sort, so citing it may be a bad idea. Would you like me to copy and paste it's references onto the Talk page?--Rmky87 being lazy

Actually, the one that discusses the visuospatial abilities of HFAs relative to Aspergians is the second one. We don't have to cite the first one at all. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. And I happen to know that it's "its" and not "it's".--165.173.136.127 15:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The sections that still need to be completely rewritten, neutralized, and reviewed for reliability are:

~~Causes~~
~~Characteristics~~
~~Epidemiology~~ struck, rewritten
~~Classification~~
And last, but most critical, the Lead

I wouldn't count on anything in those sections being true to reliable sources yet. We've rewritten to reliable sources so far:

History
Comorbidities
Treatment (still in my sandbox)
Diagnosis
Prognosis
Cultural aspects

We could use any/all help in sources to verify content for the sections that need to be rewritten, and later we need to smooth out all the text. We need images. There is ample discussion on the article talk page. Confining comments to the article talk page at this point would be helpful. There's no need to fill up the FAR page with detail, as there are many editors at work on the article talk page. Of particular concern is replacing the overreliance on Attwood (a 10-year-old book not subject to peer review) with PubMed or other peer-reviewed sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, it may not be efficient or productive to go point-by-point looking to verify pieces of text, since so much of it is inaccurate. I've got four journal reviews that I'm using to completely rewrite, mostly from scratch, saving what I can verify from the original text. It's a matter of using peer-reviewed secondary sources to verify that info included is relevant and up to date and correctly reported vis-a-vis subsequent and other work. The Characteristics section, for example, may not be salvageable at all; it seems to have developed in bits and pieces by people adding their idea of what AS is, and then later trying to retrofit citations to the text. If you can verify anything sourced to Attwood to a PubMed source, or locate any images, that would be helpful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest during this FAR that care be taken to comprehensively represent the full state of knowledge on this topic; Asperger's is not fully described by medical manuals as these sources by definition have interest only in pathology. There is persistent mention of special abilities in Asperger's among the world's leading subject matter authorities. In order to avoid accusation of POV, I think care should be taken not to dismiss nor to marginalize these claims, nor to engage in OR disputations of them. The two centers of research in the english speaking world may be taken to be the Autism Research Centre at the University of Cambridge, UK, headed by Simon Baron Cohen and The Yale Child Study Center in the USA under the direction of Volksmar. quoth baron cohen, "We have grown familiar with the idea that autism is a 'psychiatric condition', a 'disorder', a 'disability' or a 'handicap' ... autism might be better characterised as a different cognitive style" http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7138/lobby/disability.htm baron cohen writes in subsequent studies that mathematical ability is linked to autism. In fact, of the very most talented mathematicians he studied, he found a *majority* satisfied the DSM for Asperger's. He has also argued for the existence of a genetic correlation between mathematical ability and the AS spectrum. These materials are easy to google. Volksmar says, as children, "these are kids who talk before they can walk". Given that these researchers are THE authoritative researchers in the field, i would suggest that central characterization of what Asperger's IS come as much from these researchers as the DSM, etc. CeilingCrash 00:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply. Please put forward any reliable sources which are not included in the article on the article talk page.

Any reliably sourced info can be included, subject to due weight. That's not to say undue weight will be given in the lead. Please read WP:LEAD; the lead is a summary of the entire article, not a place to debate only controversial aspects.
Geocities is a personal website and a copyright violation of a journal article: that journal report is used and cited in the article, a link to geocities website is not.
The Baron-Cohen report you mention is used in the article, correctly.
I'm not aware of anyone disputing Volkmar's stature in the autism community .
The Volkmar media statement that "These are kids who talk before they walk" was not in the article before work began; it was used in a footnote, sourcing a statement about "fulfilling careers in math and science" for which so far not a single source has emerged or been verified. "Talking before they can walk" is not "fulfilling careers in math and sciences". In fact, not a single piece of that sentence has been verified accurate:

Some positive characteristics include things such as enhanced mental focus,^{dubious – discuss}^{citation needed} excellent memory abilities,^{dubious – discuss} superior spatial skills,,^{dubious – discuss}^{citation needed} and an intuitive understanding of logical systems.,^{dubious – discuss}^{citation needed} These characteristics can often lead to fulfilling careers in mathematics, engineering, the sciences,^{not in citation given}¹²³ music, art, or language.^{not in citation given}⁴

I've been reading these sources and journal articles for over a week now, and nowhere has there appeared a souce saying anything close to "fulfilling careers in math and science", nor do any of the citations listed verify that text. What Baron-Cohen did say is now accurately reflected in the article.

Baron-Cohen reports a link between AS and high-achieving mathematicians, physicists and computer scientists that shows that the condition need not be an obstacle to achievement.² The symptoms of AS can at some point "fade to normal" and people with AS can become valued workers as adults because of the "intensity of interest and volume of knowledge" that they may bring to idiosyncratic subjects,⁵ but they may lose employment if impaired understanding of social norms leads to poor judgment in work site behavior.⁶

Getting from "not an obstacle to achievement" to "fulfilling careers in math, engineering, etc." is synthesis and original research. If you have a source for fulfilling careers, pls provide. Attwood's book does mention indulging children's interest in gardening so they can become gardeners, if you'd like to include that.
If you have sources to verify any of the previously uncited and unverified text, please provide them and discuss them on the article talk page. Numerous editors are engaged in rewriting the article to be factual, neutral, and an accurate representation of reliable sources; if there is something that has not been included, you should raise it on talk. Since it appears that you helped develop much of the text that is being rewritten, your reliable sources to cite the text would be helpful. Debating on the FAR page when numerous editors are engaged on the article talk page won't help improve the article. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't describe anyone at the Yale Child Study Center—including Volkmar—as having an "interest only in pathology"; it's unfortunate you view the same experts you quote in that light, but that's not been my experience with Yale. The problem with the article was that it presented a point of view that was synthesis, original research, and which misquoted and extensively misrepresented the sources, or didn't cite sources at all. There's no need to stretch the facts; there's no problem with accurately reporting what Baron-Cohen, Volkmar or any other reliable source says, accounting for due weight. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the anecdote published in a media report that "these are children who talk before they walk"; what would you like to do with that anecdote? I've now read dozens of sources that mention the gait, posture, balance, clumsiness, motor control and proprioception problems (not atypical to AS, although not mentioned in the DSM). Most articles dedicate more space to discussing atypical language and speech and motor skills issues in people with AS than they do discussing the diagnostic criteria. In what context should we use the statement "talk before they walk" in children with documented issues affecting walking, and how would you propose to do that without getting into original research? We can't; because it was a news report, we have no context—we have a cute anecdote that is certainly true but no context for how to use it in the article. If it's added, it's hanging, unexplained, in the context of the issues affecting walking in toddlers with AS. What we can't do is use it to support superior math and science skills or fulfilling careers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Reply Perhaps you misunderstand, I am advocating Volksmar, Baron-Cohen, and Asperger himself be given authoritative weight in terms of the characterization, in their own words. Statements by these authorities should be considered without editorial commentary. For example, the supplied reference to Asperger says, in his words, "to our suprise, we have found autistics, so long as they are intellectually intact, almost always achieve professional success, often in ..." These references are already there. When someone like Baron Cohen writes a paper, "Mathematical Talent is linked to Autism", http://www.springerlink.com/content/21t03377610752g0/, that is encylopedic prima face. We should keep in mind medical sources will choose a different balance, because talent is largely irrelevant to their raison d'etre.

I think a reasonable consensus as to the weight and content of this aspect should be resolved prior to this article being listed as Featured. These are not 3rd or 4th section issues, we have Baron Cohen himself openly questioning whether this is a disorder at all. This is paragraph one; a survey of the world's most recognized sources reveal a mixed consensus as to what Asperger's IS. Let the sources speak for themselves and let the mixed message emerge. Updated CeilingCrash 18:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is already a featured article; its deterioration in featured status is handled via review, with the goal of retaining the featured status it already has—a goal shared by numerous editors. Even if you succeed in having it defeatured, as you advocated last May when I raised concerns on the article talk page,[7] that will not exempt the article from upholding Wiki policies and guidelines. Featured or not, the article must comply with NPOV, NOR, and RS, so causing it to lose featured status will not generate the result you advocate. The article is now within striking distance of restored status again, and I see no reason it won't be able to retain status.
The issue of diagnostic confusion and controversy is addressed in the article, and will likely be contained in the lead, and doesn't and won't depend only upon Baron-Cohen. That does not mean the entire lead should be Baron-Cohen's opinions and controversial apsects of the diagnosis. The lead is a stand-alone summary of the entire article with due weight given to controversies. I've been asking since May; have you read WP:LEAD yet? The prior lead had two pararaphs of controversy, one sentence that turned out to be completely uncitable, and no summary of the rest of the article.
Almost two weeks after work started and citations were requested, you've now provided a cite for this math link info; that's progress. Please understand the difference (as already explained to you on the talk page) between

a. A non-controlled, unscientific survey indicating that an unexpected number of people who chose math as a field of study say they have an autism diagnosis (the article is about Asperger's, not autism, by the way), and

b. A controlled, scientific study comparing a broad population of "normal" controls to people with Aspergers documenting a higher than expected rate of math talent among people with AS.

The second would document a link; the first suggests an area for further study but proves nothing. It may only show that people with autism in England choose math as a career, not that people with AS are across the board more talented in math than "normal" controls or can have fulfilling careers in math science fields. The Baron-Cohen hypothesis is already mentioned in the article; the only thing that can be sourced is what has been sourced (he suggests a link, etc.), and I've not encountered anything else in the literature to substantiate any further extension of the concept. You have provided no study documenting that people with AS are more talented at math than "normal" controls, or likely to have "fulfilling careers in math", but we have plenty of real studies documenting neuropsych differences which lead to learning difficulties. No one is trying to keep positive information out but first, present reliable sources for your edits on the talk page when asked, not two weeks later on the FAR page; and second, please understand the difference between the weight given to controlled studies vs. informal unscientific surveys in any article, particularly a medical one, please present your sources when requested, and please stop misrepresenting the strength of the results or what the sources actually say.
Others can't read your mind: the supplied reference to Asperger says, in his words, "to our suprise ... What supplied reference? We've been asking you for your sources for almost two weeks. Please provide them on the article talk page, where many editors are trying to source the article and where due weight to unscientific surveys are being discussed. I don't think you're being intentionally obtuse, but these issues have already been explained to you on the article talk page and you seem determined not to accept consensus and explanations from many editors. Responding to you on the FAR takes time that could be invested into restoring the article to status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

reply I've given you all this. You simply don't read it. Baron Cohen's 1st paper had was a sample size of 1,000 people with a control group of 840. You launched into a similarly bizarre lecture that a control group was necessary as well as a large sample. You didn't read it. Cohen's more recent paper was placed in the Talk page two weeks ago. The quote due to Asperger was in the reference to his primary paper, which was reference #4 for months, since removed. Your objections to the content of these studies is part OR and part misreading; They do use large control groups, etc. - you are right it would be better to randomly find AS in the general population in and test those ppl for math ability, but your objection to Cohen's using mathematics students and then testing them is OR. If you want to attack a study's methods, find another RS that does it.

Our job is not to vette this research. It is to guage the prominence of the sources, report and balance it. There are more sources, indicating more accurate memories among those with AS, but every source i introduce, rather than being judged for credibility - gets lost in OR objections to what the researcher should have done.::

In short, WP:V says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." When a luminary in the field announces a finding, we are left only to consider its weight. Even if we happen to be subject matter experts, our role here in wiki is not in an expert capacity.

I and other editors - the consensus who left a couple of weeks ago - are not likely to provide new sources when research such as this (the A you refer to) is dismissed http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2001_BCetal_AQ.pdf, with a lecture on statistical theory that even a cursory reading of the source would indicate is not necessary.

The encylopedic - and efficient - way to proceed is to guage the credibility and reliability of the source, not the finding, and let the source speak for themselves via direct citation. World-recognized authorities, publishing in peer-reviewed journals, documenting their statistical methods is RS. If you disagree with their sampling methods or their conclusions and thus declare the finding "unscientific" that is an OR rejection. Updated CeilingCrash 21:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Three or four editors tried to explain the problem with 1) the source and 2) your interpretation of the source. The information has been accurately included. You are again referring to sources without specifying them, so there's not much else can be done here. If you don't recognize the need to stick to strong medical consensus and the most reliable sources when reporting on medical conditions, perhaps PMID 12455663 will help you understand the problem that can occur by including speculation about things linked to AS absent conclusive evidence. The case of Jeffrey Dahmer: sexual serial homicide from a neuropsychiatric developmental perspective. "We propose that his homicidal behavior was intrinsically associated with autistic spectrum psychopathology, specifically Asperger's disorder." If you want to open the door to inclusion of the type of reports you're mentioning, that door can swing both ways. If you want to include positive speculation, you open the door to negative speculation as well: do you want the article to say that Jeffrey Dahmer's sexual serial homicidal behavior was specifically associated with Asperger's disorder? That's where your logic leads. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Others agree with the connection between violence and AS: shall we add this and any other speculative info about what is linked to AS, or shall we stick to the higher-quality journal reviews that reflect widespread, peer-reviewed medical consensus that are now being employed in the article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In case you want to persist down this path, here's more on the connection between Asperger syndrome and serial killers: these are the kinds of sources we are removing from the article in favor of peer-reviewed literature. Pls consider carefully the consequences of ignoring WP:UNDUE and WP:MEDRS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll write the sentence for you; not only do you want to use non-reviewed unproven inconclusive speculation, you want it in the lead, so let's just add the following to the lead, keeping it balanced:

Some researchers report a link between AS and mathematical ability that can lead to fulfilling careers in math, physics and sciences; other researchers report a link between violence and sexual serial homicidal behavior, indicating that Jeffrey Dahmer's specific psychopathy was related to AS.

That's where your editing pattern leads; happy now? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I am rather afraid that, having dug the Dahmer article up, you had probably better include it to maintain NPOV. It's a formal, peer reviewed study. You can't "spin" the article by exclusion any more than inclusion. Oh well, at least he was a competant, and prolific serial killer, that might offset the popular image of "Aspie as useless and ineffectual" a little?Zeraeph 03:05, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

You might have read it more carefully than I did, so pls quote from the sources if I'm wrong, but I didn't see that it was a formal study or a formal diagnosis; it seems to be someone's opinion and speculation. Also, there's a broader point here. We don't rely exclusively on primary sources on Wikipedia. The reason we use the journal reviews is that we rely on secondary source commentary to interpret controversial and confusing results for us and assign due weight to statements like these, rather than relying on the primary source, individual report. The parallel between these two cases is that no important secondary source has mentioned either Dahmer or the math connection; they are both no more than speculation by individuals that got published, haven't been mentioned in any important medical journal, and don't rise to the level of importance of being mentioned in any secondary source review. Neither of these meet WP:RS and WP:ATT guidelines; the math issue has two sentences in the article now only because CeilingCrash has insisted, not because there is any worthy mention of this issue in any important literature. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It's Ferrari, Silva and Leoung (very reputable names and familiar WP:RS from other psych articles), from the Journal of Forensic Sciences. PMID 15171195 is one review of it on PUBmed, it is cited here [8] - I'm sure there are more, but I'm in a hurry here. I cannot imagine what else it would need to fit WP:RS. You really had better include it to avoid POV. --Zeraeph 12:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I linked to the full text of that Letter to the Editor above. It's only a letter to the editor; in other words, someone's opinion that got published. Journals have different policies on what they will publish as a Letter to the Editor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The source under discussion is this http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2001_BCetal_AQ.pdf . My allegation has been such sources - and this is one of many - primary and secondary sources, have been dismissed without so much as reading them. Your response was

"either Dahmer or the math connection; they are both no more than speculation by individuals that got published."

Quod erat demonstrandum CeilingCrash 20:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Out

As stated before: the conclusions of that paper are already included in the article, and you are overextending the results. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that Image:Hans Aspergersmall.jpg is really of any use to the article. The caption is replicated in the text of the article, showing the image can be replaced in purpose by text. Showing a very grainy photo depicting Hans standing with a child doesn't improve the article. I think this image clearly violates fair use considerations. Also, Image:Asperger kl2.jpg is a marginal case of fair use inclusion. I don't see that it's necessary to the article to depict Hans here. --Durin 14:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment (copied on talk page) I am very concerned that the article has developed a really alarming POV creep. Not sure why or how that is happening. But I am sure that I honestly do not have time to have every word I say, and source I suggest, dismissed out of hand for, often spurious, reasons, as has happened to other editors here. I stopped editing to avoid the stress of the constant arguments here, honestly believing the article was in safe hands, so what the heck? I pop back to look and find that there are illustrations giving WP:UNDUE to one, unproven neurological theory of Autism (not even AS) and an anti-psychotic that is occasionally prescribed, and quoteboxes [9] that highlight ONLY the most negative and disparaging quotes about AS, completely distorting the impression given to any casual reader of the nature of the condition and those who have it. The Tourette syndrome article, for example, has never had similar quoteboxes. --Zeraeph 07:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

No need to have the same discussion in two different places; here's my response to you on the article talk page. Basically, TS already has sufficient images, while we're seeking images for AS, and I didn't expect you to think that "One of the most striking features of individuals with AS is their passionate pursuit of specific areas of interest" was "negative and disparaging". I'm still not sure why you think the brain image of areas implicated in AS *and* autism is undue weight, but we can all explore that on the talk page. Very little is "proven" wrt neurological conditions, but we can still reflect strong consensus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is my full response to you. The subliminal message created by the quoteboxes and images, in sequence [10], indicates cold blooded, single minded people without verbal skills or grace who are brain damaged and need medication. That is POV.

Risperidone is not of any particular significance or relevance to AS, and the suggested neurological features of Autism (not AS) are not relevant at all (unless you are now prepared to accept sources that reference Autism without specific reference to AS in the article as well?) so it becomes misleading to use them.

On the talk page you imply that you must find more images for FA status. I think it is a very good idea to raise that issue here, because any attitude of "images for the sake of images", particularly semi-relevant or irrelevant images, as a qualifier for FA, is unreasonable. If there are no relevant images available, then there are not. --Zeraeph 12:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I've been involved in the copy-editing of part of this nomination. It's not an easy job to revamp, but I'm satisfied that it's going in the right direction, particularly Sandy's efforts to present the rather fragmented literature in as scientifically and socially balanced way as possible, while providing as much cohesion as possible. Tony 01:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, having have time to sit and read the article fully I am forced to regretfully concede that it has developed an overall negative bias so serious that I have been left with no option but to delink it from several websites where I trusted the article to provide a consistently objective dynamic overview for years (something that I felt was more objective and balanced than providing a static overview). The sources seem fine, but the information cited to them is confined to the negatives (though an equal amount of positives do exist in the sources, and remain unmentioned), and much of the text seems to have a further negative bias.

Equally, the current nature of the text makes it totally inaccessible to anyone with less than third level comprehension (though, in it's current, biased, state, perhaps I should be thankful for small mercies?)

This is a particularly significant article globally in terms of influencing attitude and opinion. Because of the specific nature of AS, those affected are more likely to seek information on the internet. During the years of it's existance this article has built a solid reputation, even in print, as a balanced and neutral source. The RL damage done by this negative POV shift will be considerable. Up to this point, the editors involved honestly seem more interested in justifying what they have done and "winning", than in whether the article is actually fair, balanced, objective and accessible, as it should be.

My evaluation of this situation is as detached and impartial as it needs to be, but as someone who has to directly deal with the RL fallout I do not feel I can continue to maintain impartiality in my comments for much longer, so I am taking a Wikibreak rather than start "saying what I REALLY think" and incurring sanction. --Zeraeph 10:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations (1c), prose (1a), organization (4), and stability (1e). Marskell 13:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep. Substantive points in review commentary have been addressed by a substantial rewrite by SandyGeorgia, myself, and others. Citations are now high quality and support the claims made. Prose is of a professional standard; I won't claim "brilliant". Organization now conforms to WP:MEDMOS. Since we finished major editing today I can't claim the article is stable. The article, like every article about the autism spectrum, remains controversial, but it is now high-quality. Eubulides 22:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep now. If it can't stay with this amount of work then...argh! I think teh prose is crisp and the stability seems to have reached a middle ground (I hope..) cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove I have considered this long and hard. During this review, as during the last, serious issues of WP:OWN have arisen, where a single editor has dedicated between 60 and 80 hours a week, whenever necessary, to effectively preventing anyone else from editing this article for FAR in any substantial way unless they are prepared to embrace a subordinate role to an editor who's main area of knowledge is more likely to be featured article reviews than Asperger syndrome. This is not the place to discuss that issue as a whole, and I do not intend to do so, but after due consideration I feel certain aspects of that are relevent to FA status.

I do not feel that under those circumstances an article can be considered "stable". 11 months after the last FAR the article was largely unrecogniseable [11]. Not because old editors had come back and reverted, but because new editors had found the contents unsatisfactory. An annual, overhaul for FAR that does not remain by consensus is not a stable article.

I also feel that, as the exclusion of editors, and the contribution of editors, who refused to subordinate themselves has taken clear priority over the quality of the article, I do not see how it could possibly be an example of the best that Wikipedia can produce. To the contrary, it is an example of the antithesis of everything Wikipedia stands for.

Lastly, without the without the autonomous input of a variety of editors there is no way to avoid POV creep, no matter how subtle, and no matter how subtle, POV creep does not add up to a featured article. --Zeraeph 11:56, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove and improve per Zaraeph. In its present form the article is open to credible accusations of POV, in that it does not reflect the dual nature (disability versus gift) articulated by the leading centers of research in this field, particularly the U Cambridge Centre for Autism Research (Baron-Cohen), the Montreal/U Wisconsin group, and the Yale Center for Child Studies (Volksmar). It is more important to me that further work is done to balance the article than that a star appears next to it. updated CeilingCrash 17:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep because each contentious section now leads to a main or child article where emotionality and cutting edge, but not yet strongly enough peer reviewed and replicated can be effectively presented. This is the type of article that attracts emotionally charged readers, for these are THEIR children and diagnoses that have impacted too close to deal with an unemotional NPOV article. The daughter articles (linked at the TOP of each section) allows those who need more, who need more sources of optimism and hope, who need more positive spin. This gives them those platforms that will keep a well-written encyclopedic quality article from being destroyed again by quotes, research results and "facts" that cannot be verified by those who have been struggling with the rewrite.

And some who want things to stay as they already are have often not offered anything in exchange and that makes me irritated as I want to see them add reworded things or help fix the citation errors or add new things that can pass the Wiki encyclopedia test. For me, it seems critics can be taken more seriously when the critic is a participant in the process. There have been very active and productive participants as well as being vocal critics (should point out some persons are on vacations and have not been available).

To those persons with strong objections, perhaps some strong importing of deleted material and significant editing begun on these sister or child articles would be a compromise. And perhaps it is now time to contact those editors who did a lot of work on the 2006 edition, but who haven't dropped by in this past month so they can look this over. My opinions and thoughts, for what they are worth Kiwi 01:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

removed comment that was not part of what I posted in rewrite Kiwi 18:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Replacing explaination that first comment was replaced as per agreement with Kiwi [12],[13]--Zeraeph 18:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

- Comment

In terms of Wikipedia, "sources of optimism and hope" and "more positive spin" would constitute clear WP:POV, and should definitely disqualify an article from featured article status. - Zeraeph 02:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

- - Comment I follow the further point of your argument, and if that were what happened here I would agree with you, but, in truth, no editor was allowed to contribute without the permission of one editor who seems to have near unlimited time to revert and tie them up with, largely spurious, arguments on Talk. To my mind, every aspect of WP:OWN and WP:GAME were flouted openly here. There is no point in making contributions that you know are only going to be reverted anyway based on endless, convoluted, rationales that nobody has the time to follow let alone challenge. To my mind, that is all very clever in terms of "strategy", and suggests a considerable potential for playing chess, but it does NOT lead to a fair and balanced article created by consensus.--Zeraeph 06:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Comment I ceased participating - and i don't think I'm alone in this - due to a persistent failure to observe WP in the consideration of sources. I would introduce a peer-reviewed, large-sample, conclusive study published by a luminary in the field only to be confronted with nearly delirious nay-saying. "It must be peer reviewed." "It is." "But we need a large sample." "There's 1000 data points." "I don't see where in this study it says ..." "Let me paste it for you." "This study does not prove causation." "It doesn't claim causation." "Well, given all this controversy, I'm not sure ..." And so on. A startling failure to make coherent progress. I had 20 or so sources. I walked away at 2. The Archives make manifest the failure, so far, to dispassionately adhere to policy while surveying the broad, conflicting and evolving body of knowledge w.r.t. Asperger's - with an apostrophe - the preferred american spelling. CeilingCrash 04:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Keep. Agree with Eubulides/Casliber's assessment. Colin°^Talk 13:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove. I'm extremely pressed for time at the moment (late for a wedding) so can't say as much as I'd like, but this is my first involvement in a FAR, and I have to admit to being caught by surprise by the stability requirement. As should be apparent to anyone reviewing the talk pages and discussion above, there are still a lot of disagreements about what this page should be like, and I can't imagine the article being stable unless someone succeeds in asserting permanent ownership of it, which should not happen. I hope that the conflicts in perspective can be worked out eventually, but doubt that it will happen soon. Rather, I expect that substantial changes will continue for some time to come. Poindexter Propellerhead 01:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

comment I can't say "keep" since I already have, but wish to point out that one of the biggest problems in attempting to bring this article to FAR status was to weed out huge amounts of material about various evolving theories of everything from causation to treatment to whether or not AS has anything in the world to do with the autistic spectrum of disorders. Most of this material (and even much of the retained text) was totally unsourced or miscited to have little or not relationship to text it was attached to... As has been said, the objectives were to trim the size and to describe AS alone, as best as it is universally understood, while addressing the fact that there is much contention and variant thought. I think this has been well dealt with by the enhanced creation of child articles (prominently noted/linked at the BEGINNING of each relevant sub-topic). Only in such child topics can these issues be fully and realistically addressed with the vast quantities of studies available. Within the existing article, to reduce such scope to a sentence or two would be demeaning and dismissive of these very important issues. I feel that this compromise can lead to a very enriched presentation of the Asperger Syndrome without anyone who reads the central article being led to think that there is no more to be said, explained or understood about AS. -end of comment. Thank you for listening- Kiwi 04:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove I had a hard time deciding this but I finally had to vote Remove. There are several reasons:

(1)I think the current article is too POV and does not reflect a balance between the "medical condition" and "alternate cognitive type".

(2)I also think it is obvious that there are strong opinions on both sides that have not been worked out - and there is no rush. It is not worth risking the quality of the article by rushing it to just "get a star next to it" as someone said. As a person diagnosed with "mild" Asperger's and with a son who has been diagnosed with a far more serious case I am committed that this article be an authoritative and accurate NPOV source of information for the circle of people around myself and my son.

(3) I am concerned that - upon reviewing the histories- that it does seem that some valid studies have been suppressed or removed because some editors were aggressively maintaining their point of view. I don't want the Dahlmer article quoted but I also don't want POV suppression. So remove on my part! Alex Jackl 17:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggested FA criteria concerns are citations (1c), prose (1a), organization (4), and stability (1e)

Further comment The Reject reponses have all cycled round issues that properly belong on and have been extensively discussed on the Talk Page for the AS topic.
first of all, this is a medical article, not a social issues article, not a "what to hope for your AS child" or how some adult AS see themselves and are seeking more public understanding and acceptance.
second of all, if this medical article were to be considered NPOV because of the fact that it IS a medical article, then the bipolar article or breast cancer article or innumerable articles, if seen the same way, would fail the medical article test and changed to show a plethora of POVs.
third of all, allowing room for adequate presentation of each desired alternative interpretation of AS would easily double or more the length of the article, while still leaving the topics less than thoroughly covered.
I hold that the "main articles" (or daughter-hild-whatever they have been called) are seen for what they are, not POV non-Wiki compliant topics, but, over time, as with all Wiki articles, will come to attract the quality of editors who can teach and guide newcomers to properly present and cite the basis for properly presented facts.
I summarize by pointing out that this Article Review forum is not the place to argue issues that were already argued out on the talk page. In each case, it was attempted to explain that what was desired was to include non-medical, non-peer reviewed demonstrably replicated research. In other cases, it was begged and begged that the original quotes be presented to support material that had gradually devolved into what seemed OR or hopeful opinion. No one was able or willing to do so over the past 6 weeks.

No one, including Sandy or Eupi, are trying to say that the newest of theories, hypotheses and early research studies should be ignored, but are simply saying they cannot be legitimately covered, at length without proper medical-worthy citation, in a a medical article.

However, in articles that deal with theories and tests of treatments and cures, social movements afoot, the history of the AS, covering the evolution of how AS has been understood and interpreted over time, even going into depth about recent neuropsychiatric research involving MRI scans of LFA, HFA and AS subjects, seeking for brain similarities and differences to clarify diagnositic issues. I believe that all these topics need thorough coverage in their own topic pages. I think the present acknowledgements and links to the main topic pages is the ultimate solution to keeping this medical article a medical article.

Kiwi 19:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment I am in complete agreement with the creation of "daughter articles". Prior to this FA I actually printed off a synopsis (not the whole) of the existing article at that time, to accompany a presentation, and was shocked to find it came to 8 pages. That told me, there and then, that the subject needed daughter articles...and it got bigger since, before it got smaller.

However, that being said and done, the main article needs to summarise all aspects and POV on Asperger syndrome even more than before. Articles such as Diagnosis of Asperger syndrome are the medical articles (just as History of Asperger syndrome is nothing of the kind. With the breakdown into other articles I believe that Asperger syndrome should be less of a strictly medical article than ever before. (BTW now you have expressed a clear, objective opinion, would you mind terribly if we archived all the other stuff, and my responses, to avoid senseless clutter?)--Zeraeph 19:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment in form of responses to Zeraeph

Hi, Zeraeph, first to address your last issue, I don't think any of this FARC should be removed, save for the "senseless clutter". If you know how to make it disappear or be archived on its own, I give an unqualified YES.

Next, I happen to know that you are an excellent editor and a more than good writer, and I would like to kindly ask you if you would please create that first draft of such a separate paragraph that would indeed summarize all POV and contentious areas. Your long and close familiarity with AS gives you an edge over those of us who are definitely in the learner stage. Put it on the Talk Page. And your sandbox, too? It would have to be concise and precise to each and all. Someone needs to do this. It would have the ability to pull all the random mentions into one locale. Kiwi 20:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Now I have decluttered as I see it Wikipedia:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome/special archive, but if you disagree, move stuff back. I left your "strong keep" with it's original timeline, I think you reiterated all the objective points since (and very well too)?

I will take a stab at what you suggest tomorrow, but to be very honest with you, I am "painting too close to the wall" whenever I try. I feel others, like PP and CC, always wind up expressinbg it all far better than I could. So don't hold your breath.--Zeraeph 20:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Gee, Z - didn't expect you to use a meat cleaver. :o))Yeah, I'd like to see the good stuff put back in, even if I've said it better since. Makes my "strong keep" now look like a rather shallow knee-jerk opinion without any basis. So I presume I have to do this myself????? You're the expert, not me. Please?

So go ahead and paint close to the wall! If you start if off, then PP & CC will be forced to step into your sandbox, then you can bring the result into the Talk page for comments and critique, to clean it up, smooth the presentation, make sure all the links to other pages are properly in place. All that good stuff all gathered together rather than scattered here and there. It will be good to see how it works. Kiwi 21:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, I think your later, objective, commentary, if anything made your point more strongly, I don't agree (in this specific case), but that doesn't mean the point is not well made. Actually, I doubt if we have any fundamental disagreement at all that could not be ironed out in the way you suggest.

The problem is that this article was not recreated in the way you suggest at all, nor discussed with the open minded respect you offer. --Zeraeph 21:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

We have never had to refactor a FARC page before; I've restored the text removed by Zeraeph.[14] Zeraeph, please refrain from removing commentary. Please, both of you, read WP:TALK, confine your commentary to issues related to WP:WIAFA, and if you must tit-for-tat like this, then please use the talk page associated with this page, at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome. Please don't disrupt this page further; if you want the page refactored, pls discuss it at WT:FAR. Please don't create other archives that remove FARC commentary to a strange page; if you must comment elsewhere, use the talk page associated with this page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I have returned the page to the state in which I am only prepared to defer to User:A Kiwi's choices. It is not for you to dictate and micro manage every page you edit over the wishes of other editors. My wishes, and those of User:A Kiwi have the same weight as yours, and, in combination, override them. --Zeraeph 21:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Will you two please work this out on the associated talk page? I've put a record of the refactoring there. Zeraeph, you can't remove someone's Strong Keep commentary, and A Kiwi indicated displesure with "the meat cleaver". Please take it to talk; this is disrupting the FAR. Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Asperger syndrome SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

We have already worked it out, without your input. I have archived the discussion on the amiable understanding that User:A Kiwi will restore anything she feels is missing. I cannot really understand why you would wish to challenge that civilised resolution? It seems to me that the only person disrupting the FAR at this point is you? --Zeraeph 21:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I'll offer no judgement on who is disrupting here, and only say: almost always, you cannot remove anyone's comments. You can remove a post full of cussing etc., that says nothing applicable to the topic, but you can't remove comments that you (merely) disagree with. Repeatedly doing so is blockable. So don't. Marskell 22:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Marskell, it is not about "comments I disagree with", User:A Kiwi has eloquently reiterated plenty of those with my blessing, it is simply about the removal of irrelevant personal speculation about me that User:A Kiwi was unaware was inappropriate, and was only too willing to see archived, for the sake of simplicity, subject to her approval. Now, in the event that you feel I am sufficiently notable for my personal details to merit an article, feel free to open one, and any who wish may contribute. I raised the question of archival on WP:AN/I several hours ago and not one single person (including User:SandyGeorgia raised any objection. --Zeraeph 22:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If you two will please use the talk page here, we can all mutally work out a way to refactor the page to everyone's satisfaction. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - FWIW, the original flagger, Giggy, is back editing as Dihydrogen Monoxide. I dropped him a note. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm in support of the article maintaining featured status, based on its current state. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H₂O) 00:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Strong keep. Yeah, this should remain. In doing a little copy-editing on this article, I've been struck by how it is indeed among our best work: not only is it well written, it knits together cogently the most important research out there from a field that is not easy to make sense of, and crosses both researchers and practitioners, with their different vantage points. T