Wikipedia:Featured article review/archive/October 2007

1 Kept status
2 Removed status

Kept status

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept 10:04, 28 October 2007.

Imagism

Review commentary

User:Filiocht‎ and User:Stumps notified. No WikiProjects are listed on the article's talk page.

WP:WIAFA 2(d) states: (d) "Where inline citations are appropriate, they should be consistently formatted using either footnotes] or Harvard referencing (Smith 2007, p. 1). (See citing sources for suggestions on formatting references; for articles with footnotes or endnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended.)" -- There is not a single in-text citation in the Imagism article, nor does it ever mention any of the works or authors on its reference list (with the exception of Aldington). There was an inquiry as to how it ever acheived FA status, so I'm nominating it for review (I suspect it was promoted when standards were lower). It's well written, but does not back up any of its claims. -DMCer 16:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I've made a small start at including some in-line citations ... the listed references are quite specific, sometimes giving page numbers ... so it's probably just a matter of digging up the texts and inserting the appropriate footnotes. Stumps 02:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Substantively, the article is a gem, and the quality of writing reflects the fact that one of the contributors is a major poet himself. I'll look to chip in some citations. A Musing 13:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It does appear to be lacking in citations; I'll work on it in the next few days, but I'm not willing to say its status should be revoked. AdamBiswanger1 18:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I also added eight sources for quotations last week. It's very important to point out the extent to which this article is self-referencing:

Clearly linking Objectivism's principles with Imagism's, Louis Zukofsky insisted, in his introduction to the 1931 Objectivist issue of Poetry, on writing "which is the detail, not mirage, of seeing, of thinking with the things as they exist, and of directing them along a line of melody."
In October 1912, he submitted three poems each by H.D. and Aldington under the Imagiste rubric. That same month, Pound's book Ripostes was published with an appendix called The Complete Poetical Works of T. E. Hulme which carried a note that saw the first appearance of the word Imagiste in print.
Aldington's poems, Choricos, To a Greek Marble, and Au Vieux Jardin, were in the November issue of Poetry and H.D.'s, Hermes of the Ways, Orchard, and Epigram, appeared in the January 1913 issue; Imagism as a movement was launched.
The March issue of Poetry also contained Pound's A Few Don'ts by an Imagiste and Flint's Imagisme. The latter contained this succinct statement of the group's position:

This article is a perfect example of why "citation counting" is problematic. If there are no "challenged" statements to present, there is little to be done here. It is instructive that I was able to add eight or ten citations in a few hours without leaving my computer or even delving into a non-public Internet database. A reader wanting to confirm the "gist" of this article is certainly capable of doing the same, and would have to do so whether citations existed or not. –Outriggr § 00:19, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

A good point ... I was a bit thrown by the term 'self-referencing' until I realized it meant proving references in the body of the article ... It's a good way to get a solid factual article which is easily verifiable. Stumps 04:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Can someone pls review my edits; I'm unclear on some of the capitalization here. For example, is Classical values a proper noun? Modernist poetry in English was capitalized in one place in the text, but not in another; not sure which it should be. Also, I reduced an all caps quote per MOS:CAPS#All caps, opinions on that (that direct quote can be sourced to a JSTOR article that I can't access, maybe Outriggr can source it?) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Sandy. I added the quote reference and returned the quote to uppercase, as he wrote it. Would you be willing to reformat the book references at the bottom in accepted style? thanks –Outriggr § 07:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern is citations (1c, 2d). Marskell 18:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I see Outrigger and Stumps have been at work. People can update how they feel about this. Marskell 18:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It's close to a save. A few claims need to be cited, the images need captions, and the "Pre-Imagism" section needs to be trimed. Ceoil 19:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep The Pre-Imagism section could do with trimming yet, but this is FA standard in my eyes. Ceoil 11:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I cut the bits and pieces I was unhappy with, so my support is unqualified. Ceoil 11:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, keep—it does what wikipedia's best work needs to do. –Outriggr § 00:03, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept 15:33, 24 October 2007.

Witold Lutosławski

Notifications: WikiProject Composers, User:Tony1 (significant contributor), User:Antandrus (many useful suggestions during FAC). User:RobertG (major contributor and FAC nominator) is also aware.

I'm nominating this for FAR due to;

1. A violation of criterion 1. c, and that's because none of the information is verified. Many critical statements are made upon his style and how it changed, so this needs sourcing which should come from esteemed critics. LuciferMorgan 08:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Please complete your first sentence, "…that's because none of the information." I think the article does not violate criterion 1c ("factually accurate, verifiable against reliable sources"), because I think all the statements are verifiable from the cited references, which are excellent, readily available reference works by respected Lutosławski scholars. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice that I hadn't finished the sentence. That's now rectified. As concerns your assertion that the article doesn't violate criterion 1c, that's inaccurate and couldn't be further from the truth. Featured article standards have improved vastly since this was promoted, I'm sorry to say. LuciferMorgan 09:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

"Couldn't be further from the truth"? Good heavens. Are you implying that I wrote the article without verifying the information? And why are you sorry to say that standards have improved? --RobertG ♬ talk 09:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I am stating, not implying, that criterion 1. c. has changed and that the article doesn't meet current requirements. That's all. Considering your reaction towards my FAR nomination suggests you question the truth in what I am saying, feel free to seek other opinions. LuciferMorgan 10:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I didn't react to the FAR nomination, my first post here simply expressed my opinion that the article meets 1c. My "good heavens" reaction above was prompted by your own hyperbolic reaction to that opinion. My opinion remains that by criterion 1c as it is currently constituted, this article is factually accurate. There is a references section setting out the sources, and I think all the facts in the article have been verified.

Why should I seek other opinions? Surely, that's the whole point of FAR? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion - one inline cite per paragraph from the relevant books and reference works should be good enough. The content here is excellent, but current norms are for the refs to be more direct. This has to be done with care, though. Reviewers reviewing who have no clue what they're talking about simply causes chaos. Moreschi ^Talk 20:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

~~Keep as featured~~Comment: it's wonderfully readable, accurate, gives its references, and simply put is the best information on Lutosławski in English on the internet, with the possible exception of the New Grove article, which requires subscription and is written for a specialist audience. In fact in many ways it is superior to the New Grove article. I don't see any problems here. A lot of our best content lacks things like inline cites. If you insist in inline cites, Moreschi's suggestion above is a good one. Antandrus (talk) 02:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Struck "keep" after reading Tony's comment; forgot what page I was on. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Needs inline citations without doubt. Just like many other FAs out there... perhaps we could ask WP:SPOT for help, they did good job with HoR recently?--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 05:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
~~Keep~~ I'd take the opposite view to Piotrus. Spotlight made a right dog's dinner of the referencing there by tag-bombing the article indiscriminately. I really wouldn't want anyone who didn't know about modern classical music touching this. ~~I agree with Moreschi's idea that we only need one citation per paragraph.~~ (Incidentally the claim "He was possibly the most significant Polish composer after Chopin" is a bit controversial. Moniuszko? Szymanowski? Otherwise I can't see much to argue with). --Folantin 07:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Paderewski would be an equally good counterexample; I've never heard of Moniusko. But would anyone challenge that Lutosławski is in the short-list of half-a-dozen who might be second to Chopin? Weasel-wording, as here, does have its uses. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey folks, this is the review process, not the FARC, which would only happen it the review were determined not to have addressed the major issues. Please don't declare keep or remove here. Tony 11:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a worthy FA indeed, thanks to RobertG's work. However, the paucity of references is a major problem, I'm afraid. Robert, are you able to address this? Moreschi's suggestion is good. We need preferable two or three (or more) authoritative sources; best not to repeat the same source again and again. Tony 11:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I am gratified by the plaudits, but people haven't really given me much to go on here.

"A paucity of references," says Tony, but I think Stucky and Rae are the two standard studies. Stucky is a distinguished composer who is an acknowledged Lutoslawski expert; Rae knows his Poland (he lived and studied there) and sets the context admirably, if his exposition of the music is less thorough. I think adding more references for the sake of it would not enhance the article.

Everyone else seems to think that copious footnotes will make things "better", but I don't follow your logic. Either the article's content is verifiable, or not. If its verifiability continues to be questioned, then I must assume that there are surprising statements in the article that you all think an interested reader would doubt, and not be able to check: but which statements?

To be honest, I don't have the inclination to trawl through Stucky and Rae again (I haven't even checked they're in at the library). The criteria for this FAR make me wonder if its featured article status is quite simply a distraction: I don't see how this process is likely to improve the quality of the article.

As you can probably tell I don't yet understand the point of this FAR, nor what you are all trying to achieve. I'd like to understand… --RobertG ♬ talk 15:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

FA requirements change, and FAR picks random FA for review and checks them if they comply with modern FA standards. Today, inline citations are a FA standard. If WL was nominated today at FA, he would fail. It makes only sense to update articles or remove them if they can't satisfy modern standards (for the record, I spend much of the past year updating my old FAs instead of writing new ones...).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 16:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I quite agree that defining and upholding standards is important. I fully support the criterion that all featured articles (indeed, all articles) should be factually accurate and verifiable.

Everyone who has contributed here seems au fait with the FA criteria, and yet you all also (except the FAR nominator) seem pretty happy with this article's being featured. It seems to me that Wikipedia would be putting the cart before the horse to then say, "but it doesn't currently satisfy all the standards, therefore de-feature it". Further, what I have read here seems to be saying that no footnotes equals not enough references equals unverifiable.

I'm very sorry that I am unconvinced, and unable to really engage with this process. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This article may well be the best article on a composer on Wikipedia; it's the only one I'm aware of to use musical examples to show his innovation, creativity, and notability.Correction: Messiaen is also good in this regard. I'd like to know what statement in the article someone couldn't find the source for within five minutes by checking out the references in a library? It seems pretty obvious that biographical details can be verified in Stucky, Lutosławski and his music, and style in Rae, The Music of Lutosławski. If people want a footnote on every sentence or every phrase, who is going to verify each one? And if no one is, what has been gained? -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 21:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I don't think I've ever seen an FA reviewer who's gone down to the library to check up on the references provided in the footnotes, so why should this article be any more or less trustworthy with inline citations? (As far as I can see, the quotations in it are referenced in any case). I think we can certainly trust Robert when he says all the material in this article is in the sources. I don't know much about Lutosławski, but I do know something about Polish history and the historical background in the article checks out fine as far as I'm concerned. I like to see extensive referencing on controversial subjects, but Witold Lutosławski hardly comes into that category. --Folantin 08:08, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

For the record actually Folantin, I do doubt some of the statements in the article and that's why I brought it to FAR. Simply put, if this was nominated today it would fail and falls far from FA standards. There's too many unverified POV statements in the article. FAC currently passes music articles which are much better than this, so all the people who are voting keep frankly need to read criterion 1c again. I will be returning to this FAR to highlight specific POV statements, something which everyone above seem to have conveniently missed. LuciferMorgan 12:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

So I assume you'll be checking the citations in the library if they are added to the article. FAC currently passes music articles which are much better than this - I have my doubts. --Folantin 13:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

LuciferMorgan, thank you, you talk sense. The questioning of specific statements is what this FAR requires. Question them here please, so we have something to deal with and this FAR can begin. By the way, I would be intrigued to know which recently-featured music articles you consider to be much better? Seriously, I'm genuinely interested, I really would like to read them. --RobertG ♬ talk 16:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous: no one's asking for "copious" referencing, a footnote "on every sentence or phrase"; but there are clearly not enough to provide the kind of verifiability that is required for authoritativeness. I wonder whether you really do work as an academic. Tony 12:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, personal attacks (nice second one in the edit summary), really cute. :) -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 02:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC) [1][2] [3][4] [5] [6] [7]

I didn't need a raft of defensive weblinks showing that you are in fact working as an academic. My remark was rhetorical. Tony 07:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I can provide a few inline cites from the (quite extensive, written by Rae) Grove article on Lutosławski, if people wish. That's not perfect, but it may work as a temporary solution to demands for cite-crunching. Moreschi ^Talk 14:32, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Moreschi, thank you very much for offering. I happen, personally, to disapprove of tertiary sources (such as other encyclopedias) for Wikipedia references, and on those grounds I think it might reduce the quality of the article to cite Grove (even though the Grove article is by Rae). Also, I wouldn't advise the citation of individual facts or paragraphs: either the prose will get lost in a morass of superscripts, each individual footnote pointing to the same references, or it might cast doubt on the remaining apparently uncited statements. Also, you might miss the specific POV/unverifiable statements that LuciferMorgan has offered to point out, quite apart from its distract you (us) from the business of building an encyclopedia. --RobertG ♬ talk 16:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In fairness to Grove, in this case I think it counts as more a secondary source than a tertiary one - Rae is surely going to have used his own research and conclusions for the Grove article, not just synthesized available literature. In any case, I'm only advocating this as a temporary fix - I agree that cites from the relevant books are better, but that will take longer. Moreschi ^Talk 20:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, you might miss the specific POV/unverifiable statements that LuciferMorgan has offered to point out, quite apart from its distract you (us) from the business of building an encyclopedia. - Feel free to clarify that last statement RobertG, because I am keen to know what you meant by this. LuciferMorgan 17:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In your previous comment above you offered to point out statements in the article which you perceive to be POV. I am keen for you to do this, please. Otherwise the task Moreschi was offering to do appeared to me to involve trawling through the Lutowlawski article placing footnotes against statements which have not been questioned, and which could easily be verified from the given references. This does not seem to me to be the best way to improve Wikipedia, nor the best use of Moreschi's time, and hence I characterised it as a potential distraction. Once you have told us what the questionable statements are, we can address whether they require footnotes, and that seems to me a much more sensible way forward. I apologise if my meaning was not clear. --RobertG ♬ talk 18:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The main issue where POV is, is within the "Music" section. LuciferMorgan 18:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In his later works Lutosławski evolved a more harmonically mobile, less monumental style, in which less of the music is played with an ad libitum coordination. - This is a critical judgment, and can be attributed to the critic / biographer in question (I'm assuming this is either Stucky or Rae). As we know, critical opinions slightly or marginally differ from critic to critic and each critic places a lesser or more significant emphasis on different aspects. LuciferMorgan 10:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"More harmonically mobile" and "less monumental": the former seems to me unquestionable, the latter less so, but I will have a look through the sources to back them up. That his later works contain "less music played with ad libitum co-ordination" does not strike me as a critical judgement requiring footnotes, however, but a plain statement of unquestionable fact. For example compare his String Quartet, his Livre pour orchestre and his Second Symphony with his later Piano Concerto and Chantefleurs et chantefables. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. --RobertG ♬ talk 21:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert: what does harmonically mobile mean? Tony 16:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Lutosławski described musical composition as a search for listeners who think and feel the same way he did — he once called it "fishing for souls". WP:CITE requires all quotations to be cited to the source in question. LuciferMorgan 11:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll look for a ref (from memory, I think it's quoted in Jacobson). --RobertG ♬ talk 09:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. --RobertG ♬ talk 21:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Lutosławski himself did not hold the view that such influences had a direct effect on his music, although he acknowledged that they impinged on his creative world to some degree. Since this sentence mentions Lutoslawski's viewpoint, can the publication where his opinion is referenced be sourced? LuciferMorgan 11:05, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll have a look. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as I suspected, Rae 1999 (which is where I think this is discussed) is not available to me just now (actually, not until mid-October). Sorry. --RobertG ♬ talk 21:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This is rather unfortunate. Should the article get defeatured due to the fact this isn't available, perhaps you could renominate it when the book becomes available to you. LuciferMorgan 14:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree; very frustrating that the FA status could hinge on this deficiency. Can this reference, and others, be distilled via another route? Tony 14:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

May I restate my puzzlement? One view (the one I hold) is that "Lutosławski himself did not hold the view that such influences had a direct effect on his music, although he acknowledged that they impinged on his creative world to some degree" could be trivially verified by anyone with access to the references, and therefore the sentence doesn't need a footnote. I am baffled that you have questioned the statement, but I make no complaint.

When I get access to Rae, perhaps in October, I will possibly add a footnote. Whether it is in the meantime de-featured has become a matter of low importance to me. I have been completely unable to engage with this FAR. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) I was asked for a comment here. Though the majority of FAs that lack inline citations are typically about three years old and in middling shape, we have seen comprehensive, well-written articles that lack them and it's always a dilemma. I take your points Robert, but it always comes back to this: Wikipedia articles are not static. You know the sources and you know this page is accurate at the moment—but then we have to assume that you will always be watching it to ensure it complies with 1c. What if someone comes along and adds info from a new source or their own OR and you're not watching? Readers going through it later won't know what's from what because there were no inline cites to begin (they don't have to be footnotes, incidentally).

But I don't want another drawn out debate on 1c. Mid-October, you say? Then we'll wait until mid-October. We've gone eleven weeks here before, and I really don't mind unless the article is an embarassment to the FA star—this one clearly is not. Marskell 13:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, we can wait till mid-October.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 13:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Permitting this extra time will save a worthy FA. Thank you. Tony 10:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Copious footnotes will help an article only if someone watches the article to ensure that none of the following happens:

The footnotes are moved from the statement they support to one they don't.
The meaning of the text is changed or reversed, while the footnote stays.
The footnote itself is vandalized.

I have seen the first two happen often, in good faith. Chill, guys. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Everyone seems quite chill, from where I'm sitting. Marskell 08:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Even though me and RobertG have differing opinions over citations, RobertG was pleasant enough to write a nice message on my talk page. LuciferMorgan 12:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course: RobertG is quite the gentleman. Tony 14:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Its a great article, and we have few enough featured articles on composers. I hope RobertG finds the time to go through the tiresome work of adding footnotes to an already attributed page, because it deserves the star. Ceoil 18:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Just in case you thought I'd forgotten you all: I have now assembled the references and will be looking at them again over the next week or two (or three?). I have made a start. On the basis that if a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing well I will probably just reference everything, even though I originally thought that would be unnecessary overkill. --RobertG ♬ talk 05:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

*Bows deeply*. Marskell 19:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

*Bows even more deeply with hat flourish (nose touches floor)* Thinks: "what was all that about then?" --RobertG ♬ talk 16:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I think I'm done here. Thanks for your patience. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Robert, for a monumental task; this should be retained as an FA. However, you'll hate me for saying that I think it's way over-referenced now. If you feel inclined some time in the future, some of the repeated references (such as within sentences or in successive sentences) could be rationalised. Tony (talk) 14:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately I enjoyed re-reading the references (and I find his music bears much repeated listening). I kept worrying that I'd discover truthiness had crept in to the article: fortunately there wasn't any. And I don't hate you, Tony! I will, perhaps, as you suggest, "rationalise" the refs some time, because I agree with you.

If anyone watching here wants anything else to do, I commend Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tōru Takemitsu to you: please contribute over there. --RobertG ♬ talk 14:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think 1c is at fault, so congratulations to RobertG for referencing the article. LuciferMorgan 14:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The article was kept 14:07, October 21, 2007.

Dmitri Shostakovich

Review commentary

Alerted nominator, WP:Composers, WP:RH, WP:MUSICIAN (Bio subgroup), WP:RUSSIA and WP:WPO

Old School ('04) FAC of Dmitri Shostakovich

Nominated & passed FA back in 2004, but while the bar has risen for FAs, the quality of the Shostakovich article has remained inert and I don't think this now passes FACR#1. While the article is good, it has varied problems, ranging from excessive reliance from too few scholarly sources (and way too much rehashing from Groves - a typical problem with composer articles) to language and flow issues. Comments and suggestion for improvements most welcome. Eusebeus 15:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Most of the citations from Grove's are direct quotations on the quality and impact of Shostakovich's music. We should include such matters; including them from Grove's will reassure the reader that they have not been cherry-picked as POV, but are likely to be the consensus of musical criticism, as I believe they are.

I am, in fact, strongly impressed by the use of sources. There is neither too little nor too much of Testimony, that perennial danger on this subject. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I make it 7 out of 37 references being to Grove, which doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Unfortunately Shostakovich has not been well-served in the academic literature as far as surveys of his output go - as far as I know there's no equivalent of Stucky and Rae for Lutoslawski (and I have looked). For general statements about the music rather than on invidividual works, that leaves the options of a) Grove or b) generalising from work done on individual works, which I think would be orignal research and much less preferable. Having said that, I have no particular opinion on whether this should still be an FA: I don't do FAs any more and don't know the current criteria. Henry ^Flower 10:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are referencing (1c) and prose (1a). Marskell 19:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Retain as above; the only suggested concern I see is the use of Grove's, which I approve. For what it's worth, the new Grove's Online retains the judgments and much of the prose of the Second edition. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Keep. I've read the article and added references for a few quotes that were not cited, and made some minor tweaks. The writing is actually quite fine, and it's sufficiently referenced. –Outriggr § 23:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Closing: I'd have liked more comments here and there are a couple of unreferenced sections, but I'll trust Rel's work. Marskell 14:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The article was kept 19:38, October 17, 2007.

Chennai

Review commentary

User:Sundar‎, User:Nashcode,‎ User:Brhaspati,‎ Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities,‎ Wikipedia:Noticeboard for India-related topics‎, User:Rigmahroll notified

I guess this article was promoted to FA under the old guidelines. Sadly, it fails to measure up to the present guidelines. I feel it fails at least the first three criteria. There are several issues with the article including sourcing and several prose issues. In my opinion it needs a lot more work to be counted among the best on Wikipedia. Sarvagnya 04:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment While I do feel that the article needs some work toward improving its lead, redistributing prose into roughly equal sections and paras, and a thorough copyedit, I do not agree that it merits bypassing a discussion in the article's talk page and going for a review. Also, I'd request you to provide specific examples to help understand the problems. I'll devote some time in the next few days copyediting the article and request everyone interested to help. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment Regarding the citations, I feel it can be worked upon. Regularizing the existing citations (that is providing all the info available for a citation, preferably in a template) will do a lot of help. I have started working on this aspect. Also, it would be helpful if "citation needed" tags are put. I request the FAR proposer and others to put such tags. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 22:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment Gave the article a quick once-over. Prose (as in language) seems largely OK. Citation neededs can be worked on or rephrased to avoid making unverifiable (or tall) claims. Review process more suited to talk page than FAR. -- Brhaspati\^talk/_contribs 03:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment The so-called problems in the article are not beyond rectification with discussions in the article talk page. I feel the FAR request is unnecessary. There is nothing seriously wrong with the prose or the verifiability. Tagging practically each sentence smacks of disruption. Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 05:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment I agree with the other comments, the concerns should've been brought up first in the talk page rather than go for an FAR without any discussion anywhere. In any case: the article needed references, which have now been provided, for the most part. Lotlil 13:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Defeature a.s.a.p. ...while the total metropolitan population was 6.4 million. The estimated metropolitan population in 2006 is 7.6 million. Is this a joke or is this a joke? The article also does not seem to bother to make any distinction between the Chennai district and the Chennai metropolis. A note about Saurashtrians (and Saukarpet) financing history may be included. Anwar 19:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The article actually says this: As of 2001, Chennai city had a population of 4.2 million, while the total metropolitan population was 6.4 million. The estimated metropolitan population in 2006 is 7.6 million. This sounds clear enough to me. And, why should the article talk about Saurashtrians, when nothing is being said about Telugus, Malayalees, Kannadigas, Marathi people, Gujjus, Rajasthanis and so on? Lotlil 20:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, another Anwar-gem. Add that to long list of random but mandatory Anwar fart on India-related FAR/FARC/FAC.--Blacksun 20:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

More comment Cited references need structural formatting. Retrieval date, as far information on publisher etc as possible. --Dwaipayan (talk) 16:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm guilty of adding many citations in the non-template format, I did that because it seemed to use a lot less bytes than the templated version. But, I just retested this theory with a few sample citations and I'm not so sure now. I'll go ahead and standardize the refs with templates, we can then decide whether the article is too bulky. Lotlil 16:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

The references are fixed now. Thanks. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment, there are still very substantial WP:MOS and copyedit issues in this article; an independent copyedit is needed, there are many WP:MOSDATE issues, and references are unformatted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

References are formatted now. I will request a cpedit from the experts once the content issues (raised in the review below) are fixed. Thanks. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - A review and list of concerns... in no particular order really.

~~half the lead (the sister city stuff and all) doesnt belong in the lead.. or even perhaps the article itself.~~

Moved sister cities to Culture and the National park info to Geography. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

the climate stats box is overkill for this SS article. has gaudy colouring too.

I think the stats box can stay in the article, but I've made it appear collapsed, by default. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

most of the pics are of very poor quality (b'natya, luz corner, usman road, tennis court). the maps in the geography section also look weird. A map making(svg) expert should be able to consolidate everything in the rail network map which is good.

Removed luz picture and one of the geography maps. The rest of the pics looked ok to me, just needed some resizing to fit well with the text. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

~~pics need to be to the right as far as possible.. too many pics to the left of the text.~~

This is fixed now. There are still a couple of pics on the left, but I think they look better there. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

After trimming down the sections, I had to remove pics on the left due to space constraints, anyway. No pics are on left now.Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

sources - some of the sources like worldwar1.co.uk, chennai-madras.com, madurainews.com, racehorseowners.com, freemeteo.com, world-gazetteer.com etc., look very suspect and may not qualify under WP:RS.

"detroit of asia" is pov and UNDUE. who else other than the IT secy has called it so? it is not a well known sobriquet like Garden city/silicon city (in case of B'luru) etc.,. that apart, not really sure if being a detroit is anything to be proud of considering detroit's own withering fortunes.

Detroit of asia was not mentioned in the text of the article. It appears in a reference as the title of the news report. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

hmm... i guess it was in the article(perhaps the lead) when this was first brought to FAR... but was removed soon after.. certainly was gone by the time i wrote the above comment. my bad. Sarvagnya 08:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Sports section needs a complete makeover... for instance, "The stadium is famous for its list of records, including the first ever test match victory that India recorded in 1951–52 when they defeated England, the second of only two tied tests between India and Australia in 1986 and Saeed Anwar's 194 in 1999 which is still the highest ODI score by a batsman." doesnt belong in this article at all. Sriperumbudur and sholavaram are not Chennai.
- The cricket records do belong in this article in my opinion as they're important milestones in Cricket's history. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 17:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether the records should stay or not. It's fine either way. We can surely remove it, if you insist. Sriperumbudur is a part of the metro area (we talk of all the hardware companies in this area under Economy). What other aspects of the section needs to be fixed ? Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Trimmed down the section (to about the same size as when this article became an FA, 2 yrs ago) and forked off many of the details, including the records, into a sub article.Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

~~{{see also|}}s look better at the top of the respective sections.~~

Fixed. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

child articles required for each section. create them if they dont exist.

The important sections already have child articles (History, Geography, Economy, Culture and Transport). Media, Demographics, Education and Sports don't have one, I'm not sure if this is a requirement for FA. The other Indian cities FAs don't have child articles for these sections either. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Though I don't think it was necessary, I added sub articles: Education and Sports. Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

of most concern is that almost all child articles are poorly sourced and badly written. Ideally, each section should just summarise a well written and comprehensively sourced child article.
- Well, it may be true for some sister articles, but is not a FA criterion AFIK. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 17:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

If there are claims in the main article that are unsourced neither there nor at the sub-article, that's a concern. But I didn't see many such cases. Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

economy section is a mess. too many names of companies thrown in. tafe and ti cycles dont belong in the same league as hyundai(which has a huuuuge plant in chennai and was one of the earliest of the new age MNCs to enter madras) or MRF (which has a history with madras). foxconn who? virtusa who? naza automobiles who? try and get a better source than citymayors.com for exceptional claims like "fifth largest GMP" (i dont doubt it myself.. but feel that a FA needs to be sourced better in crucial areas). "Chennai was recently rated as having the highest quality of life among Indian cities ahead of the other three metros and Bangalore, based on the "Location Ranking Survey" conducted by ECA International." - eca intl., who? source? relevance to economy section?
- I agree with this. But, I guess this is fixed now. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 17:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this section needed some work, I've done some fixing up. Let us know if there are further concerns. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Administration section - Nanchil kumaran doesnt belong in this article. I am not sure Utility services subsection belongs in this article at all... atleast not in its present form. right now it reads as if its target audience was a new migrant to chennai looking to get cable and internet. either remove it altogether or melt it down and recycle it into other sections. names of MPs dont belong in this article.

Added table of officials. Cable tv moved to Media. The rest look ok to me. Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Water subsection - in the context of water supply to madras, telugu ganga project is too important to be left red. also if i am not wrong, desalination projects have been in the works for over two decades. so the line needs to be removed or reworded and at the very least, sourced.

Fixed. Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

~~did a random ctrl-F for "Parry's corner"; couldnt find it. From what little I know of Chennai.. it sure belongs somewhere in this article. ditto with mount road.~~

Good catch. I tried to fit these two into the text, though may not be at their most optimal places. See if it looks ok. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Culture section - "This unique cuisine is replicated in many a Madras Cafe in other parts of India and the world." draws too much attention. Not to mention, the second half of the section is completely unsourced. amazingly, the Madras Music Academy fails to even find a mention in this article. cut down on a 'roll call' of new age software companies and please add institutions and organisations and where possible people that really have a history with the city. for example, I'd rather Kumaran and Nalli saree shops be mentioned than infosys and wipro.
- I agree. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 17:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  - "Culfest" sounds too weird to even be a neologism. Sarvagnya 08:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

hmm.. this much for now. But the article still has loads and loads of problems. plenty of MoS issues. Plenty of sourcing issues. Plenty of weasel/peacock/pov issues. And the prose is way below par for a FA. requires several rounds of copyediting. I'm afraid I cant support retaining its FA status yet. Sarvagnya 04:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it would've been useful and helpful if this list was posted when it was requested by almost every commenter so that the issues can be fixed. (Not that I agree with all of the above objections. Nanchil Kumaran does belong here given that he is the incumbent CoP. Doing random Ctrl-F for specific strings and not finding them is no review at all.) And some other issues mentioned above have been fixed now. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 13:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I leave it to Lotlil to update the status regarding the issues that are already fixed. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 17:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Good review. Thanks. I will try to address the remaining comments (the ones I haven't replied to) in the next few days. Once the content issues are behind us, we can request an independed cpedit for prose and MoS issues. Anything you can point out before that, would help. Lotlil 03:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Most concerns have been addressed. I still need to remove the few questionable sources and also add citation for one paragraph in the Culture section. Lotlil 23:26, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Status: Should this go down to FARC? Work can still continue there. Marskell 16:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the criteria for moving from FAR to FARC is, so I'll let the others speak up on that. Most of the concerns raised so far, are addressed (except some possible MoS issues). Would help if someone takes another look at the article to say what more needs to be done. Lotlil 23:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are prose (1a), comprehensiveness (1b), and referencing (1c).

Comment: Just moving it down to get greater clarity on whether people feel it's up to speed. Marskell 10:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It's in pretty good shape. Definitely still among Wikipedia's best. If any of the above identified items can be further addressed that would be great. A few more things that would also help are the last paragraph of the lead and the last paragraph of the history section particularly need to be expanded. The space devoted to various time frames should be approximately even. There's got to be at least one or two more important things that have happened since 1914 that could balance that out and make a cohesive paragraph. Also the economy section just covers the large corporations without discussing what most of the people are involved in economically which isn't properly balanced. In general the article looks pretty good though as those are relatively minor points. - Taxman ^Talk 03:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'm trying to identify significant events that happened in Chennai during that period. States Reorganisation Act perhaps altered the boundaries of the areas currently under the Chennai Metro area? If so, I'll dig up some sources related to that. Are the recent issues around proposals to move the secretariat and the Kannagi statue notable enough for a mention here? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Sundar, I don't think the proposed move of the secratariat is notable enough (at least until the move actually gets approved and starts materializing). Same with Kannagi statue. Lotlil 13:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I had my doubts about them. By the way, I was referring to the controversy surrounding the earlier proposal by the Jayalalitha government to move the secretariat. On second thoughts, that too is not notable for a summary article. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I still think that there are substantial issues with the article, particulary prose and sourcing (for sourcing concerns, seem my comment in FAR). The prose has more than a few redundant sentences(for example 1st sentences of the 2nd and 4th paragraphs of the "Transportation" section are essentially the same) which ought to be ironed out. The media section is too listy and talks nothing about the birth of different kinds of media in the city. For example, which was the first newspaper? When was the first radio station established? Who has the largest circulation? etc.,. The economy section has too many names and too little facts and figures. Also, not sure if "under construction" projects need to figure in the section just yet (they havent started contributing to the economy already, have they?). There are more such issues in almost every section. At the very least, the article needs some serious copyediting for prose and flow. Will try to add more comments in a couple of days. Sarvagnya 05:40, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I am not understanding the above editor, Sarvagnya's, overt hostility and sarcasm toward this article demonstrated throughout his many comments above in FAR. Are not the comments, suggestions etc. supposed to be constructive, or at the very least, neutral? Although not all comments on FAC articles are ideal, I have never seen this level of negativity before on FAC and do not understand what the goal in being so antagonistic. The article is not as faulty as many I have seen go through FAC without such belittling comments. --Mattisse 21:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I am not understanding the process here. I would help out with the copy editing, but I cannot make sense of what is going on. Maybe I am not supposed to enter in here and am out of place, that only designated editors are supposed to enter in. --Mattisse 21:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse, can you please spell out what you find overtly hostile or negative in Sarvagnya's review? Come to think of it, I agree with him that this article still needs some work.. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ ^{walkie-talkie | tool box} 05:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse, you can obviously comment here. It would be great if you helped with copyedit too. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I have copy edited several FA articles, including a few for India. However, I looked through this article and did not see any glaring MoS "breach" errors. Could someone point them out to me? I am not clear what is in dire need of fixing. (Content, of course, I cannot address, except to note that it is admirably concise.) It seems well organized. Perhaps Climate and Water could be merged. If someone will point out to me the problems I would be willing to try to fix them. --Mattisse 12:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Mattisse. Could you give the article a quick read through and see if the prose or flow needs work anywhere? Lotlil 13:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

On second thought I think not. I see India admins are involved. --Mattisse 17:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I concur with User:Mattisse. This FARC was raised on frivolous grounds. As my comments at the start indicate that none of the issues of the article are not beyond fixing with some civil discussions on the article talk page. I cannot fathom the continuing antagonistic and disruptive comments by Sarvagnya. Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 04:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

In general I find that most outdated FAs only get improved, in this case refs, when they are put in the firing line. Many other FAs, such as India, lack citations even though there are 5x more people on the talk page discussing the lack of citations and agreeing that it is missing and nothing is happening. So in general, it seems that tagging articles with {{fact}} or sending to FAR is the only way of extracting improvement in many cases, even though it can be seen as a testy tactic. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Single subsections should go. =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- Nichalp, I've merged the lone subsection "Utility services" into its parent. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There still seems to be unnecessary information floating around. I've removed an "aka". Other trivia include the caption of the image "venue of the tied test" etc. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep Article in better shape. I am commenting keep hoping the following would be taken care of (1) Remove the subsection "Water". You can add a gist of this subsection to utility services. (2) If needed, create a separate section on "climate", rather then giving it a subsection status under "geography". (3) Can get rid of some names in Economy section, as indicated above by Sarvagnya (4) One image is listed for deletion. (5) Further copyedit, which Mattisse and others are doing. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Keep. Lotlil and others have fixed almost all the content and referencing issues. Dwaipayan's above comments have been fixed by prose refactoring. Economy section perhaps needs some more work, but those are minor. Taxman's admittedly minor issue regarding post-1914 events is not fully addressed, but that period had far fewer events worth mentioning related to Chennai. Will add some as we find. Finetooth from the League of Copyeditors has given a thorough copyedit on my request. As it stands, the article is in a very good shape, still among the best of Wikipedia. Minor issues will be ironed out in regular course. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 04:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Referencing problems:I checked the sport section and only the Chepauk and the Chemplast sentence are fully sourced. The hockey stadium sentence is partly sourced and tennis sentence is partly sourced. So In all, there are only 2 +0.5+0.5=3 sourced sentences, the rest need to be sourced. The claim that the cricket is the main sport is the headline sentence and definitely needs to be sourced, just in case it might be a non-average place where soccer or hockey are the most popular. If this lack of sourcing is a general trait of the article, then it should not be an FA. Also, many of the references are not fully filled in, some refs have authors and publication dates listed but not filled in. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- References have been provided for all ~~but one~~ (which you say is needed "just in case") of the facts pointed out above. Those were either common knowledge or easily verifiable. They have references now, nonetheless. How do you say it's a general trait? After a staggered release schedule of issues with the article by Sarvagnya which were fixed from time to time, you're bringing these minor issues up at the end of the review and claim that it's a general trait. Neat. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
  - - Well, the reason I said "just in case" is because the fact that cricket is the most popular sport in India does not imply that it is the most popular everywhere. In Australia, Australian rules football is the most popular sport, but in Sydney and Brisbane, rugby is 5-10 times more popular. Hinduism is the most popular religion in India but there are some states and districts and cities where it is not. Even still, when I came in today, the Venkat and Srikkanth from Chennai claim was not sourced, Lillee is not the MRF director as claimed, and the fact that the Nehru stadium can be used for multiple things is not sourced, nor is the fact that the golf courses were 19th century nor the fact that the people listted like Anand etc actually do come from Chennai. So it is not correct to say all references have been provided because they are demonstrably not. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Each sentence does not need to be cited. Cricket in India and rugby in Australia aren't even a close comparison. If any Indian city claims some other sport to be popular, that's what needs to be sourced. Venkat and Srikkanth have their own articles whose references show they are from Chennai. Same with Anand. And, no, their roots to Chennai aren't contentious. One can question every single sentence, for the sake of doing so, but that would just be a waste of everyone's time.Lotlil 02:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

- - Even the lone remaining fact has a citation now. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
    - Well, actually, that is because not every sentence is tagged. To do so would seem disrespectful, which is why people have not tagged every single sentence, because it would not be correct to treat you as though you are a child and that everything needs to be pointed out one by one. It is a given that when the FAR was started on grounds of lack of sources, then there is an understanding that a lot of info is unsourced. The reviewere (FAR or FAC) does not have to spend 4-5 hours checking every single sentence and example of a non sourced sentence and tag every single one of them; it is unfair expectation since the person who wants to claim the FA star is responsbiel for its well being; it is also demeaning to the people responsible for the article to engage is finger-wagging every single thing like a headmaster embarrassing a kid in front of the class. The prevalence of unsourced info was there at the start and it remains now. I did not get around to checking all of hte article and only did that one sample. By the theory of statistical sampling, the fact that 70% of that section is unsourced is a bad omen for the rest of the article. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Just curious, what percent of an article should be cited explicitly, for it to be an FA? According to you, it's apparently over 30%, should we attempt to measure a few FAs (even recent ones) against this criteria? Lotlil 02:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, 100% and definitely > 90%. Other wiki articles are not RS. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't pointing to other wiki articles to be used as a source. Venkat's article explains, among other things, that he is from Chennai. It cites cricinfo as the reference (the same source you have added to the Sport in Chennai as a reference). My point was, as long as a reader can reasonably verify questionable claims using wiki-linked terms or sub-artciles, we should be fine. It would be disruptive to cite every sentence in a main article. Anyways, out of curiosity, I looked up a recent India FA - Karnataka. It's Education section has 13 sentences (many with multiple claims) and a total of 5 sources. So 8/13 sentences are unsourced, i.e., over 60% is 'unsourced'. I'd be surprised if any of the 1000-odd FAs measure up to your high standards! Lotlil 02:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

- - Just counting the number of fullstops, the article has 316 lines with 85 inline citations—a citation for every 3.7 lines. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, that section has been fixed. It would be helpful for the purposes of this exercise if you could indicate whether you actually think that citations problems are a general trait of the article or not - obviously, as you say, if they are a general problem then the article should be defeatured, but from you comment it isn't clear whether you think it is, and if so why. -- Arvind 13:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
  - continuing from above, I went on to check the next two sections from the bottom up, and in the education section, only about 10% of hte article is in the sources attached and in the media section only about 30% is sourced. At FA level, that is not good enough. ~~Delist~~. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
    - The arguments you've provided for delisting the article are completely gratuitous. With this purely quantitative method of fact review, random statement can be questioned merely because they don't have a citation close enough to them. It's one thing to demand that truly controversial, counter-intuitive or highly obscure facts be cited, but questioning their veracity by merely being ignorant of them borders on the disruptive. Footnotes after almost half the sentences in an article makes Wikipedia look stupid, not more credible. Peter ^Isotalo 02:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually most articles that were written on teh run and not referenced properly have quite a few problems from inacurate or semi-accurate info. In any case, this article has improved a lot, so keep. Good work. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

~~De-feature~~ - the article was using many non-RS sources, something that I had pointed out weeks ago. They were still there and I've removed and replaced them with {{fact}} tags. Few other problems also remain. Cannot support at the moment. Sarvagnya 06:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Many of the fact tags that you've added now have been replaced with proper citations. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 11:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- And it would be very helpful if you could let us know what the other problems are. Just saying "defeature because other problems" remain isn't a particularly helpful comment in a process such as this. -- Arvind 13:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

De-feature - This article was featured two years ago, so it's obvious that lots of things happened to decrease the quality of the article from the featured level. Some considerable number of {{fact}} tags are still remaining. So I too cannot support at this moment. --♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪ ^{walkie-talkie | tool box} 10:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- It was promoted two years ago, yes. But, quality issues have been fixed from time to time, more so recently. The "considerable" number of {{fact}} tags is five of the tags added a few hours back by Sarvagnya. Those facts are minor enough to be even removed if we don't find citations in a day. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 11:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you could point out exactly where the article is below featured level quality - it strikes me as a little odd to say that an article isn't at FA quality because it doesn't provide a citation for the newspapers published in the city (which, at the moment, is the only out standing {{fact}} tag, in relation to which see also my comment below. -- Arvind 15:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment I found that there are five {fact} tags in the article. One is in the lead concerning consulates, one is in Geo and climate which is about elevation and highest point, one is in the administration section which deals with CDMA and the other two in the Media section, dealing with sentences on Chennai newspapers and radio stations respectively. Apart from these five remaining fact tags, it would be helpful to know what specifically are the other issues that this article needs to address? Gizza ^© 12:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- There is now one {{fact}} tag in the article, and that is for the list of newspapers. Does this even need a citation? A quick look at other featured articles about cities shows that most of them tend not to provide sources for the names of the newspapers that're published in a city, but only for circulation figures, rankings, and other such things. -- Arvind 15:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Some problems that I see

Sports Section:

** The city has a long-standing and thriving motor sports culture. This is a POV or needs a substantial citation. ** No citation exists for the motor tracks mentioned

- What is meant by Other athletes of repute from Chennai include Chetan Baboor, as far as I recall Chetan Baboor always used to play for Karnataka and PSCB. Does he reside in Chennai? Is that what this means? In any case, citation is needed.

** Viswanathan Anand resides in Spain, he no longer resides in India. Sentence needs to be changed.

Good catches, thanks. I've fixed the bits about the racing and Viswanathan Anand. I have no idea about Chetan Baboor - if nobody adds anything by tomorrow, I'll take him out. -- Arvind 23:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I've provided citation that says he's a product of PSBB (Padma Seshadri), a Chennai school. He played for PSCB while being employed at Bharat Petroleum (I believe in Chennai too, I will find a link for this later, if needed). In any case, I added his name ahead of another famous TT player from Chennai, S. Raman. If you insist we can remove Chetan's name and add Raman. Lotlil 20:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

When Chetan was not playing for his employer, he used to represent Karnataka, as seen here. Since he does not seem to relate himself to Chennai, I am not sure if his name should be there. Any how, Sharat Kamal's name is already there, which should suffice as far as table tennis is concerned. Please add Raman's name if needed, since that is more relevant -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 05:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed Chetan. He was a Kannadiga, yes, but I don't think he played for K'taka (in fact he apparently represented TN in sub-junior and junior level, before moving on to represent his employer). But, this is a minor detail for this article, I agree that we can let go of his name.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Lotlil, just to get the facts right. He did represent Karnataka as seen here. In fact, I had the privilege of being one among the audience who watched the exact match that is being talked of in the article, live in the stadium. -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 11:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Media section:

** Some info on the history of media (newspapers and like), will make this section better. Currently I see it as containing only a list of names.

Done. Lotlil 20:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Transport section:

** The city has plans for an underground Metro - citation needed. ** The Gemini flyover, built in 1973 over the most important arterial road, Anna Salai, is a well-known landmark in the city.. What does this mean? Is it a heritage site? Is it so significant that it supercedes may be other important landmarks in the city? Just a comment since I did not see the significance of it... ** Vans, run like bus services and popularly called Maxi Cabs, also ply many routes in the city. Hired transport includes metered call taxis, fixed rate tourist taxis and auto rickshaws. - The grammar is confusing, can we use simple English please. ** The rail network is broad gauge. - This small sentence, can be clubbed with many of the sentences in the section and would look neat

Done, mostly - but I actually didn't see the problem with the sentences you've cited in your third point, so I've left them as they are. -- Arvind 23:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Have modified third sentence myself, let me know if there is any issue... -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 02:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Culture section:

** Local bands play music in many styles. Of course, they will. A city with such a population will have diversified music. The sentence is very generic and does not convey much

One way to fix this sentence that Amarrg has pointed out is by mentioning what the "many styles" are in the form of examples. "Local bands play music in many styles including ..." Otherwise, it is better to remove it altogether. Gizza ^© 00:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

REmoved sentence. Lotlil 20:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

- A personal opinion is that Chennai does deserve much more in the culture section. I see absolutely nothing on literature

Economy section:

** Where are the numbers, where are the financial figures? Some data please... You cannot have an economy section with just text in it

Added some income, employment and export numbers. Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead in:

** Chennai is the third largest commercial and industrial centre in India - This sentence is vague. The citation shown seems to be an off-hand remark. Does this mean in terms of the workforce or in terms of the contribution to GDP or in terms of the number of industries present here? Can we have some clarity please...

Redid the lead a bit and removed this sentence. Lotlil 19:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

History section:

** Tamil agitation against Hindi needs a citation

Geography section:

** Is that weather averages table really needed? It would be better to move it to a sub-article; as without it, the article looks neater and the table will no way affect the FA status anyways...

Removed. Lotlil 20:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Administration and utility services:

** Just a thought, I see that there are lot of names like Airtel, Vodafone etc... being mentioned here. While this is OK, it is also prone to abuse with people adding names as and when there is a change, degrading the general look and feel and thereby the quality of the article. This requires a lot of maintenance as well. As an example, in the recent round of mobile licences, more than 10 companies have applied afresh. If nothing is done, names of all these companies who are granted licences for Chennai will slowly start appearing in the article. Ideal way would be to move names to a sister article and keep the quality of the main one intact

Done. Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Economy

** making it a preferred destination for medical tourists from across the globe - Is a POV

The ref was in the sub-article. The ref (from Govt. of India) actually says it's the largest hub in S. Asia. I was toning it down by saying it's "a preferred destination". Please feel free to modify, if needed. Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Have changed it in the article to sound NPOV -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 17:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

** Most common treatments sought by the tourists include heart surgery, neurological procedures, cancer treatments, plastic surgery and orthopaedic procedures. - This is POV and needs a good citation.

The ref was there in the sub-article. Moved it over, now.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

** This section needs more citations. I see only 6 citations for a section that contains more than 20 sentences

All numbers, claims etc. are cited. If a sentence is uncited, it most likely has wikilinked terms or a sub-article that cites it. If you find any that needs explicit referencing, let me know.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Demographics
- making it one of the most densely populated cities in the world - This needs a citation.

Provided ref for the density numbers. wikilinked "densely populated" to a global list to clarify the point. Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The Global list is nomed for deletion, so an appropriate better citation may be needed -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 17:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

That article wasn't nomed when I wikilinked it 2 days back, but it seems to be now. Provided another citation.Lotlil 19:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Lotlil, refs are fine. One small problem though. The population and density figures mentioned in the Infobox dont match the ones in the article. Also total population figure in infobox is 4.35 million where as that of the Metro in the infobox is 7.5 million, is that correct? -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits}

Yes, the figures are correct. The city's population was 4.34 mil as of 2001 census (the infobox said 2006, which was wrong) and the metro area (which is chennai city+other suburbs) was 7.04 mil. as of 2001 census. The 2007 estimated population of the metro area is 7.5 (according to the Hindu article).Lotlil 16:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

** The last paragraph needs more citations

Removed linguistic communities and added migrant info, with refs.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Transport

** This section lacks citations -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 02:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Some references have been added from sub-articles, pl. take another look and see if any specific info needs to be cited.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove—1a, unless copy-edited. I looked at just the lead, which is likely to be better than the rest.

"Considered the automobile capital of India, Chennai is home to a major percentage[6] of the country’s automobile industry." Can we have the reference number at the end of the sentence? Disrupts the flow when shoved into the middle.
"second-largest" and then "third largest".
"and is a base for the manufacture of hardware and electronics, with many multinational corporations setting up plants on its outskirts." Clumsy prose. Try "and is a base for the manufacture of hardware and electronics in many plants owned by multinational corporations on its outskirts."
"the Bharatanatyam, a classical dance"—Check whether it's a classical dance "form" or, perhaps, "genre".
"The city faces problems with water shortages, traffic congestion and air pollution."—Overuse of "with" in such a role. "Of" would be better here.
How do mini-flyovers address water shortages? Tony (talk) 13:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Reformatted the lead a bit and fixed the prose/grammar issues you've pointed out. Bharatanatyam is a dance form and I've corrected the statement. Thanks. Also, the lead says the city's problems are water and traffic and they are being addressed by the Veeranam project and mini-flyovers. The Veeranam project addresses water and the flyovers address traffic.Lotlil 19:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Too much work has been done not to keep this, and I don't see why it can't be. Can we have some comment on the last prose and citation concerns? Marskell 20:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment

Education - a handful of {{fact}} tags still remain. The first paragraph on education is entirely uncited. Also, there should be information in the education section which traces the birth of modern education, who the pioneers were, when were the first school/college/universities started, what is the literacy rate... how many educational institutions exist.. in short, as much info specific to chennai as possible and not just generic info that could be a part of Tamil Nadu article.

Moved references over from the sub-article to here. Added info about total # of schools. The sub-article gives details of when each notable institution was started.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Demographics - population density is uncited. Madras bhashai is entirely unsourced cruft and we have a sentence riding wholly on it. In the last sentence, Kannadigas, Sindhis, Marwaris, Gujaratis okay.. but anglo-indians, punjabis, bengalis, UP and Bihar? I am not so sure. A citation will help. Also afaik, kannada population is on par with atleast the malayalam population. In fact, Kannada population form about 2.5-3% of TN's population and all of them are concentrated either in Coimbatore area or Madras. That would mean that their numbers in Madras are on par with atleast malayalees and i dont see why they should be bundled with anglo-indians and punjabis and bengalis! A citation(preferably one giving percentages) will help clarify these things.

Removed linguistic communities and madras baashai (I remember taking this out once recently, somehow this has made it back). Added migrants info.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Transport - citations required for the figures mentioned.

Moved citation from MTC article.Lotlil 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Media - instead of a numbing list of channels, pipelink them to a List of TV and radio channels in Chennai or some such (or maybe an appropriate section in Media in Chennai) and free up space to mention that the Sun TV network, headquartered in the city is one of India's biggest media houses etc.,. How can that notable fact about media in chennai not be mentioned? Get rid of the frequencies of the long list of FM channels... those frequencies belong on advertising billboards.. not in a summary article.

Done. Lotlil 19:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Inane and context-less sentences - I fixed a few such sentences in the course of my edits here (examine my edits in that window and the accompanying edit summaries). The article has more such disjointed sentences which are just thrown in there without context. Not all of them are insignificant and need not be removed. But they need to be reworded and put in context. And citations should be added where necessary. Sarvagnya 21:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Updates: Almost all issues seem to have been resolved. Can people update their comments/votes based on the improvements made? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Maria Irudayam was twice World Champion. Mentioning it would be better than the current "only Arjuna awardee".
Anand is now THE World Champion. Tintin 09:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Changed. Lotlil 16:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment. The references need some clean up and completion; I will start from the bottom of the article later today. Perhaps others will note the type of edits I make, and start with similar from the top of the article. Can someone please fix this?

Madras itself is etymologically derived from Madraspatnam, the name of the site chosen by the British East India Company for a permanent settlement in 1639.[clarify]

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I cleaned up references in the bottom half of the article; the top still needs to be done. It's apparent that citations were added by many different editors using several different styles. Sometimes cite web was used for The Hindu, sometimes cite news; sometimes publisher was used, sometimes work, often dates were missing, sometimes titles were wrong, sometimes publishers are missing.[8] I hope someone can finish the ref checking and cleanup to the consistent style now in place for the bottom of the article. I added a clarification needed on a statement that said "about eight"; is it eight or is it not? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Completed the top half of the ref formatting. The refs all look consistent now. I've removed the statement ...about eight papers, there are more than eight papers/magazines (which are listed in the section). Lotlil 22:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep - Plenty of good work has gone in