Wikipedia:Featured article review/archive/November 2006

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Greek mythology

"Brilliant prose" promotion; messages left at Mythology and Middle-earth. Sandy (Talk) 17:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC) Additional message at History of Greece. Sandy (Talk) 12:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I came across this article while searching for something and was quite surprised this is a FA. It is apparently a hold-over from the days of Brilliant prose. In trying to determine when this was featured, I was able to locate the date that the featured article info box on the talk page (15 Mar 2004), but I cannot locate a nomination, nor could I determine the nominator. This article lacks cites, but also is lacking in comprehensiveness and decent writing. It has changed a great deal since it became a featured article and has also suffered from a great deal of vandalism. I believe this would require a great effort to bring it up to current Featured standard.

Problems
  • 1a - Not well written.
  • 1b - Not comprehesive.
  • 1c - No cites.
  • 2a - Lead leaves much to be desired.
  • 3 - It has 3 images, which is acceptable, though an article on such a topic can and should have many more.
*Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 17:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment WikiProject Middle-earth?!? Jkelly 17:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering the same thing. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 19:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
That only means I found a link to that Project either in "What links here" or on the article talk page when I ran through all 400+ articles: if a Project links to an article, I notify, in the hopes that casting a wider net will help find someone who will work on the articles. The "What links here" don't always make sense, but the idea is that the more potential editors we can pull in, the better. (And, if anyone knows of Projects that might help, please do put out additional notifications.) Sandy (Talk) 00:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The link was at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Middle-earth/Standards#Tenses... Carcharoth 08:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. As a Greek I feel very sorry I see this article here. But I must agree it is an awfull article, as it looks like now! Bad lead! Bad structure! I don't even like the writing! Uncitated! I could do some things for this mess, but I don't think I can soon bring this article very close to FA criteria. I must study my material, find additional sources, think about the right structure, start rewriting, improve the prose (the most difficult task for me, since I'm not a native English speaker). Maybe it is better to defeature it and then start form scratch. I really don't know.
I don't think it is exactly within its scope, but I'll leave a message in History of Greece wikiproject, in case one or more editors have the eagerness, the appetite and the background to co-operate with me, in order to achive something within the pressing time limits of FARC. But I must admit I'm not so optimist about such a prospect!--Yannismarou 11:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I will lend as much help as I can. Unfortunatley, my knowledge of the subject is limited thanks to a high school teacher who thought learning how to diagram sentences was much more important than learning about Greek mythology as everyone else did. Let me know if you'd like me to help copyedit and I'm always up for a little research. I'm glad to see that someone has taken an interest in this article. Cheers! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 14:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
OK! Thanks! I did some work with the lead, but nothing more. I hope I'll find some time tomorrow to work more on this. And I'll definitely need your copy-editing skills, when (and if!) I complete my improvements in this article.--Yannismarou 14:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Just let me know. I just made a very minor correction to some sources you added. I changed the spelling of Aischylus to the more common (at least in English) Aeschylus. I have the article in my watchlist and I'll check in and see what changes are being made. Nice work so far! *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 18:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your collaboration!--Yannismarou 19:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
As you may see, I've already worked on some of the sections and I'll continue improving the article. I estimate that I'll need about 10-15 days to bring it to close-FA status. I don't know what are exactly the time limits of FARC, but I had to inform you about my time table (approximately). This article still needs much more work, but if I stay on schedule and if I have a nice copy-editing at the end, I think that we can save it.
Oh! And something else. You might get the impression that my edits are scattered and mal-organized! You may even wonder: "What, on earth, is he doing?". Just don't rush to judge me! This is my way of working. You'll see that in the end the final result won't be that bad!--Yannismarou 15:52, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I've watched this board for a while and if something is being done to an article, they will usually let it sit here for awhile. You're improvements have certainly sruced the article a great deal! Would you mind if I added a few more images? *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 02:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Be my guest!--Yannismarou 09:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if I'll continue contributing to this article, after some incomprehensible interventions I saw from other users. You can check the talk page of the article to see what I mean.--Yannismarou 09:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC) Misunderstanding.--Yannismarou 15:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This article still seems to be based on a picture derived from Bulfinch, Age of Fable and Edith Hamilton, The Greek Way. It has never been close to being a proper Featured Article, though once it appeared on the front page. --Wetman 09:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I just inform that by tomorrow I'll hopefully have finished my rewriting and then I'll ask for a copy-editing.--Yannismarou 12:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
So, we should move to FARC just to keep things moving; please let us know when we should have another look. Sandy (Talk) 04:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No objection. I have still to work on two subsections concerning the gods and I've asked from Ganymead to help me with the copy-editing. But this urge for copy-editing help is addressed to everyone here who can help. I do my best, but I remain a non-native English speaker! I think that the "touch" of somebody having English as a maternal language is needed!--Yannismarou 12:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll be working on the copy edit over the next few days. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 15:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I just had a look, to see if I could help with copyediting - some questions first. Are all of those References really used in the article? Is all of that Further reading seminal, important, and necessary? Can someone look at the section headings (use of "the") relative to WP:MOS? I've never encountered the referencing mechanism used in Notes - can someone point me to something which explains it? The article is quite long, with 89KB overall, and a whopping 58KB of prose: is there a section or two that could be spun off into Summary style? Some candidates might be Modern interpretations or the Motifs section, or some of the text might be abbreviated in some of the sections which already employ summary style and have daughter articles. Can the Table of Contents be streamlined at all? It just seems that a look at the overall article organization might help. Sandy (Talk) 15:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, the references are all used in the text.
  • About the further reading, I also have my reservations, but I do not want yet to trim it, If I don't check each source, one by one, and be sure about its utility or redundancy. I've already removed some of these books (the list was even longer!).
  • I also want to trim the "See also" section. The remaining links look to me unimportant.
  • The motifs section is alerady short taking into consideration its importance. I'll try to summarize the "Interpretations" sections or maybe merge them with the "Theories of origin". But I think the first thing needing improvement is prose. If we have an article with a good prose, I believe that we can more easily "cut-needle". Yes, 89 kb is big, but Greek mythology is huge as a subject itself. As you can see most of the sections or sub-sections are already summaries of other bigger articles! After all, some of the current FAs are over 100 kb. As I had commented on Tourettes Syndrome FAC for me comprehensiveness is above length. Let's first achieve good prose and comprehensiveness and then we'll see what we can do with the size. In any case, I'll definitely check the overall organization of the article and we'll see what changes might be needed (I've already given you some hints).
  • I already saw your first tweaks in the article. Thanks! Waiting for more!--Yannismarou 15:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Although I still believe that size is not the major issue here, I point out that the article is now 85 kbs long (minus 4 kbs). I created a new article (Modern understanding of Greek mythology), trimmed the interpretation and origin sections and got rid of the "See also" section. Further size changes will be clear, when I finish rewriting the remaining two sections about the gods.--Yannismarou 17:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
New sub-article created: Greek mythology in western art and literature. I trimmed the the "Motifs". Now, we are at 83 kb.--Yannismarou 17:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Status Have the concerns from this review been addressed? I would like to hear from the nominator and the editors. Joelito (talk) 21:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to know what the nominator and the other reviewers feel that is left to be done.--Yannismarou 22:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As the nominator, I'm thrilled to see the changes that have taken place on this article. I think that it has reached featured status and should be allowed to retain its star. Many lauds to Yannismarou for his hard work and to the other editors who have worked to bring this article up to standard. I have done some copy-editing and hope to finish in the next few days. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have also done some additional (slight) copy-editing to my own rewriting. I think the article is comprehensive and fullfils FA criteria now. But I'm still open to suggestions.--Yannismarou 10:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Wholehearted support This brand new overhauled and polished article deserves our merit. Congratulations to the contributors. NikoSilver 11:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Move to close FAR per Yannis, Ganymead, and Niko. Sandy (Talk) 14:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Mount St. Helens

Review commentary

Messages left at Blankfaze, Mav, Geography, and Mountains. Sandy (Talk) 03:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I was going to make a comparison of a featured article about a volcanoe with an article that I've been working on. Reading this article, there are some issues for being an FA:

  1. There are no inline citations.
  2. Many redlinks.
  3. Several boldfaces, not an article title, in the lead section.

I think it is just a matter of technical issues. Somebody interested to fix that? — Indon (reply) — 03:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I think I took care of the bolding issue, it was too simple an issue to not just get it out of the way. Jay32183 05:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks. I should have done that, but the first issue is quite important, IMO. — Indon (reply) — 07:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Yes, that is the important one. It will require significant effort to fix. Jay32183 17:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I have begun addressing point 1 above, but as Jay32183 pointed out, this will take some effort to resolve. RedWolf 19:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll help adding cites as well. As for red links, that is not valid reason for defeaturing. It is not the fault of this article that subtopics are not covered well. --mav 20:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
    • A bunch added to geology section. History section needs a lot of help in that dept. I'll add more cites later. --mav
    • The redlinks are a concern. Either stubs should be made or there should be no link. Jay32183 23:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
      • A concern that we don't have coverage in those topics. But that does not bear on this article and thus is not a valid reason to de-FA. --mav
        • But is that a valid reason to refuse to deal with them? Jay32183 14:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
          • What does the number of redlinks have to do with FA status? -- ALoan (Talk) 23:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
            • Redlinks have almost no purpose, why link to a page that isn't there. It's not unreasonable to ask that either stubs are made or the links removed. That won't be a pressing issue in keeping the FA status, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. Jay32183 02:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
              • They serve a lot more purpose than a sub-stub that pretends to tell the reader that there is info behind that link. At least with red links, the reader knows there is nothing useful there yet. It also invites them to help. --mav
              • I strongly disagree with the statement that redlinks serve no purpose. They are probably the most important feature of Wiki: Ward Cunningham pointed out that HyperCard doesn't have a nice way to represent a useful concept that hasn't been written yet, but Wiki does. Mav is exactly right: redlinks invite readers to help, it's vital to WP. I strongly oppose de-FA due to redlinks hike395 01:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
                • So you're refusing to make a stub because it won't encourage other people to contribute? Jay32183 02:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
                  • I would far rather leave a redlink for someone who is knowledgable in an area, rather than having me write a bad sub-stub. If there are redlinks that you feel confident about filling in, please go ahead. But, I agree with Mav that is it unfair to ding this article due to redlinks. hike395 17:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
                    • But right now we are only raising concerns with the article, not deciding whether it should remain featured or not. Please also note I did not raise the concern, and my personal feeling is that a small number of redlinks in an article is acceptable even when featured. I just don't want people disregarding a complaint that there were too many, which seems to no longer be the case. My last check showed only one redlink, which is not an issue, if there were 100, it would be. Jay32183 18:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm attempting to rescue this article: it's had a first-pass copy-edit, been reformatted, and I've added a few references. I hope others will join in on the citations. –Outriggr § 05:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks for letting us know: pls remember to add Retrieved or Accessed on dates to website references, and to expand those [no.] links in References and Notes. Sandy (Talk) 17:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
      • All things in good time! –Outriggr § 18:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm also helping. --mav 16:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Could we get some opinions on article organization? I had moved paragraphs on the "human impact" of the 1980 eruption into a new high-level section on the event, given that this event is what distinguishes the mountain for most readers. Mav has moved the paragraphs back to "Human history". (Mav, I don't mean to not address you directly, but I thought the discussion might as well be here.) This also requires him to use inline comments like "(see geology section for more detail)". I'd prefer to dispense with those. In my view, the "Human history" section is valid, as is the "Geology" section, and while the 1980 eruption has facets of both of those, it deserves its own main section. I don't think this is a case of "recentism": to quote from the article, "the eruption was the most deadly and economically destructive volcanic event in the history of the United States". Thanks! –Outriggr § 04:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Geology is geology and human interactions with that geology are history. Neither the history section or the geology section would be complete without some mention of the most recent geology (the way it was after you worked on it, looked as if the history of the mountain stopped in the mid 19th century; same for the geology). Each section needs to stand on its own within its area of coverage; pulling out important parts from both of those sections to make a third cripples those two sections. The current organization is very clean in that respect and should stay. Note that this is the organization that has existed as a result of the original FAC. --mav 13:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
      • But now the article has almost context-less paragraphs about some guys who died because of the 1980 eruption. They are, in a sense, anecdotes, and need the meat of the hard facts about the 1980 eruption to precede them. Additionally, geology is long-term, and I don't think anyone is going to despair the fact that an event that occurred in 1980 is not listed under "geology". Yes, the way I left it leaves a gap in the history, one that could be filled out appropriately, with a transition paragraph or more research. –Outriggr § 01:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
        • That is why I added a transition paragraph to the history section that talked - in general - about the eruption itself. That is all that is appropriate for an section about the human history of the volcano. If somebody is interested in the geologic details of the eruption, then they can easily navigate to that section (an jump link is even there). -- mav
  • I agree with Mav here. Keeping high-level sections on geology and history have nice parallel structure with other mountains and Cascade volcanoes. Separating out the 1980 eruption seems odd to me. hike395 03:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Regarding the discussion I started on Oct. 30 on Mount St. Helens article sectioning: the new volcano FA Mount Tambora has a top-level section devoted to the "1815 eruption", in addition to a section on "Geology". For posterity. –Outriggr § 00:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

NOTE TO FAR ADMINS: Work is still being done on this article. Many cites have been added and more are being added. --mav 17:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC) Comment No progress since November 1. Not all concerns have been addressed. Time to consider FARC? Joelito (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Confused. This article has had a much better facelift than most FARs, and now contains some inline citations. Is your concern that it still doesn't have enough? –Outriggr § 00:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are inline citations (1c) and style issues (2). Marskell 12:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Comment: I see some people are happy with this one now. No harm moving it down for the extra period. Marskell 12:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Only one red link now and almost 40 refs. On top of that, the article layout has been improved with subsectioning of long sections and the addition of images. Also, a minor expansion (not to mention a few copyedits). --mav
  • Keep - It's far better now. — Indon (reply) — 09:13, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as FA: I agree with Outriggr --- the article has received a great facelift. hike395 04:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
S/he was suggesting moving it to the FARC period that allows for at least another two weeks of work and discussion before the final decision is made. I agree if that will keep things on pace. Jay32183 04:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC) That comment no longer makes sense, since the above was moved to the FARC commentary. Jay32183 19:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove. Not satisfied with the low level of referencing. The "Human history" especially is obviously under-cited and needs much more work.--Yannismarou 18:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Nearly 40 cites for an article this size is not low. But I added more ; now the great majority of paragraphs have at least one cite. Anything specific that needs to be cited? --mav 21:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I think it needs some more. Tomorrow I'll be more specific and I may also add some citation needed.--Yannismarou 22:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Would rather not vote on a FAR I contributed to, but this needs support in light of the above removal vote[?]. –Outriggr § 01:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC) Strike vote then, if supporting carries no weight. Huh. –Outriggr § 02:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
    • That's not how it works. The fact that Yannismarou has an actionable concern needs to be addressed regardless of people thinking the article is already finished. Jay32183 01:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Well supporting means something if you have a "this is a featured article" reason. But "keep" and "remove" comments do not cancel each other out, it isn't actually a vote. It appeared you were saying "keep" only to cancel out a "remove". Jay32183 02:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
        • In combination with my earlier comments and my participation in the article upgrade, I considered my "keep" to be implicitly saying that this article is well-enough referenced and well-enough written to maintain FA status. So that's why I would vote keep, if I were voting. But yes, I do think that Y's vote needs "cancelling out", because if the work that has gone into this FAR is insufficient to save it (and I'm not referring to anything I've done; it's been mostly mav I think), then the FAR process seems almost entirely ceremonial to me. (Sorry, I can't help with the occasional rhetoric.) Cheers, –Outriggr § 03:03, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
          • There's no one-to-one "cancelling", as they are not in fact votes. However, the comments are considered in sum with consensus in mind (as with any Wiki process, the more considered and specific the comment, the more it will be noticed). By all means you should note "keep", Outriggr, if that's you're appraisal. Marskell 16:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • All votes are respectable and there is no one-to-one "cancelling". If somebody want to vote "keep", that is OK. And then we see where consensus go. To the point now. I beieve that these assessments should be cited (I've also added these ugly citation needed, in order to help the editors to locate them easier):
  1. "It was formed only within the last 40,000 years, and the pre-1980 summit cone started to grow only about 2,200 years ago. The volcano is also known to have been the most active in the Cascades within the last 10,000 years." Sources for these historical information? The whole paragraph is uncited.
  2. In "Importance to Native Americans" there are two uncited paragraphs.
  3. "By 1911, it was clear that there were no veins of precious minerals rich enough to offset the high transportation costs." Clear to whom?
  4. "The lack of a significant ash layer associated with this event indicates that it was a small eruption, which may have been nothing more than billowing clouds of steam and dust.""This was the first reported volcanic activity since 1854. Between the 1857 and 1980 eruptions, there were reliable reports of small eruptions in April 1898, September 1903, and March 1921." "Before the 1980 eruption, Spirit Lake offered year-round recreational activities. In the summer there was boating, swimming, and camping, while in the winter there was skiing." Sources for this infos? Who says that this event indicates that it was a small eruption? Who assesses? What reports? Who reported?
  5. "James Dwight Dana of Yale University, while sailing with the United States Exploring Expedition, saw the then-quiescent peak from off the mouth of the Columbia River in 1841. Another member of the expedition later described "cellular basaltic lavas" at the mountain's base." Unsourced information.
  6. "The Reverend Josiah Parrish in Champoeg, Oregon witnessed Mount St. Helens in eruption on November 22, 1842. Ash from this eruption may have reached The Dalles, Oregon, 48 miles (80 km) southeast of the volcano." Sources that the Reverend witnessed the eruption? Who says that the eruption "may have reached" the Dalles etc.
  7. "During the lead-up to the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens, 84-year-old innkeeper Harry Truman, who had lived near the mountain for about 54 years, became nationally famous when he decided not to evacuate before the impending eruption, despite repeated pleas by local authorities. His body was never found after the eruption, which left a huge crater open to the north. Fifty-seven people were killed or never found. Had the eruption occurred one day later, when loggers would have been at work, rather than on a Sunday, the death toll would almost certainly have been much higher." Uncited paragraph.
  8. "Following the 1980 eruption, the area was left to gradually return to its natural state preceding the devastation. In 1987, the National Forest Service reopened the mountain to climbing. It remained open until 2004 when renewed activity caused the closure of the area around the mountain. (Mount St. Helens was the most climbed mountain in the United States and the second-most climbed mountain in the world after Japan's Mount Fuji.)" Uncited paragraph with historical information.
  9. "Close to the year 400, the Sugar Bowl eruptive period began, with small quantities of ash and lava erupting from St. Helens' northern flank. This period ended with the emplacement of dacite domes, including Sugar Bowl, around the year 800." Source here?
  10. "Roughly 700 years of dormancy were broken about 1480, when large amounts of pale gray dacite pumice and ash started to erupt, beginning the Kalama cycle. The eruption in 1480 was several times larger than the May 18, 1980 eruption. In 1482, another large eruption rivaling the 1980 eruption in volume is known to have occurred. Ash and pumice piled six miles (9.5 km) northeast of the volcano to a thickness of three feet (1 m); 50 miles (80 km) away, the ash was two inches (5 cm) deep. Large pyroclastic flows and mudflows subsequently rushed down St. Helens' west flanks and into the Kalama River drainage system. The source for at least some of these debris flows may have been the explosion of a dacite dome near or at the summit." Another uncited paragraph.
  11. "Between 1980 and 1986, activity continued at Mount St. Helens, with a new lava dome forming in the crater. Numerous small explosions and dome-building eruptions occurred. With the winter snow of 1980-1981, a still-unnamed horse-shoe-shaped glacier began to evolve in the shadow of the crater. As of 2004, it covered about 0.36 square mile (0.93 km²). Until 2004's volcanic activity, it was considered the only growing glacier in the lower 48 United States. The growth of the new lava dome has almost split this horseshoe glacier into northern and southern parts, as confirmed by aerial photographs." "From December 7, 1989 to January 6, 1990, and from November 5, 1990 to February 14, 1991, the mountain erupted with sometimes huge clouds of ash. In 1995, 1998, and 2001, earthquake swarms were recorded beneath the crater, though without explosive activity." Who provides all these data? Two uncited paragraphs.
  12. "While geologists have warned that an eruption similar to the May 1980 eruption is still possible, they say that the chances are low." What geologists? Nobody mentioned and no source mentioned! As a result we have an uncited assessment and weasel words!
  13. "This was not considered a large eruption, but merely a minor release of pressure consistent with ongoing dome building. The release was accompanied by a magnitude 2.5 earthquake." This was not considered by whom?
  14. "Geologists are unsure if the earthquake caused the collapse of the lava dome, or if the collapse of the lava dome caused the earthquake." Once again uncited assessments→weasel words.
All these about the citations, but this article has also some other problems (basically minor), which indicate that some details are not worked as well as they should be. For instance:
  • Weasel words I mentioned, which, in most cases, is the result of the lack of adequate citations.
  • In "See also" section I see once again articles already linked in the main article. But this is not correct. In "See also" we include only articles not linked in the prose. There is no reason to double-click the same links. The "see also" section needs at least cleaning (if not deletion).
  • Why the categories at the end of the article aren't they alphabetized?
  • Why in note 29 there is just an external link and nothing more explaining the specific citation (source? Title? Description? What is this?!)?
  • Are you satisfied with the way the external links are written. I see no alphabetical or other order there.--Yannismarou 20:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you could post to Mav on his talk if you haven't already? Marskell 21:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
All but 5 or so above-noted cite issues fixed. Minor issues addressed. The remaining cite issues need book cites ; I'm away from my books right now and may not get back to them for a week and a half. --mav 04:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
So that would be about a 3 to 4 day extention of the normal procedure and I can support that since you have been making every effort you can to address the concerns. Jay32183 05:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I also appreciate mav's efforts and turn my vote to Weak remove.--Yannismarou 09:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll wait a few more days to see if the inline citations are completed, otherwise I'll be a Remove. The article is so close, it's a shame not to finish the citations. Sandy (Talk) 23:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC) Strike, sorry, I just noticed Mav's note about needing another week. Sandy (Talk) 23:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Keep. Sandy (Talk) 19:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Done. --mav 18:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Nice work! Jay32183 18:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep! Keep!. Nice job!--Yannismarou 21:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Layla

Review commentary

Messages left at Deltabeignet, Albums, and Songs. Sandy 19:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm nominating this article for FAR because;

1) 1. c. isn't met - ALL direct quotations from the bandmembers etc. need inline citations. The "Recording", "Structure", "Beyond the original album" and "Acoustic recording" sections all need proper citations, especially reasons why the lyrics/music was written and critical comments upon them.

2) 1. a. isn't met - the "Beyond the original album" is very listy, and needs converting into cohesive paragraph prose which flows, tying the whole section together. The "Quotations" section is listy also, and I feel would be better served by merging them into the "Beyond the original album" section in proper paragraphs, and of course tying the whole section together. LuciferMorgan 12:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Inline citations aren't required, despite popular belief, when Harvard referencing or other forms of citation are used. As for the second issue, you are correct. Also, in general, the article in whole isn't sufficiently referenced. If someone were to work on it a bit, it wouldn't need to be taken off FA status.
On first glance, it appears to need more inline citation work: there are still broad patches of text with no source. Sandy 19:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Actually, I am right on both accounts. Point 1 does indeed need to be addressed (especially direct quotes), otherwise my objection wouldn't be actionable. It is actionable though, and if the criteria concerns aren't addressed within the 4 week period, this'll lose its FA star. LuciferMorgan 09:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - First, let me thank LuciferMorgan. The article has for some time been lacking in several areas, and I think this review will be just the boost it needs. I have reworked the references and cited much material, along with a few new references. I have removed or rewritten most of the problematic text. In general, it's a better article today than it was yesterday. Deltabeignet 19:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Thanks for your compliment. Having said that, I have to say more inline citation work is needed, particularly regarding the origins of the song. LuciferMorgan 19:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - Under the "Acoustic Recording" section, I'd like to read about some critiques by notable music reviewers. Right now the article makes a critique of this specific version, but without inline citations. This could be considered original research. I think this section could be expanded. LuciferMorgan 22:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Status? - Citation requests haven't been fulfilled, move to FARC. LuciferMorgan 22:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns inline citations (1c), prose and list sections (1a and 2). Marskell 08:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove if issues I raised in FAR aren't addressed. LuciferMorgan 23:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I may have finished the last of the work by merging and trimming the section on the "unplugged" version. Deltabeignet 06:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • More tags that need filling have been added. LuciferMorgan 21:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Done. Deltabeignet 05:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks.. Can some other editors pitch in with a review of this article? I'm finding it difficult to see areas of improvement - the lead maybe? I'm unsure. I think the lead may need expansion, but find other reviewers opinions first. LuciferMorgan 10:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
        • I'm traveling, and won't be able to review for a few more days. Sandy (Talk) 16:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
          • If anyone can find criteria this article doesn't meet, can they inform the original FA nominator and give a time extension please? LuciferMorgan 18:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral The article is quite good but I'm not ready to certify it as a kept review.
    • "Clapton, having heard Allman's work on Wilson Pickett's "Hey Jude" cover, and finding himself in the same area as Allman, was introduced at an Allman Brothers concert by Tom Dowd." Should be rewritten. There's something I don't like but I can't put my finger exactly on what it is.
    • ...saying "There are my principles, in one form or another." Quote that should be sourced.
    • The caption of Image:Layla audacity.PNG is poor. Currently it states "Note the two clearly defined movements, the first tapering off into the second." The tone is unencyclopedic. It should be rewritten as "Visual acustic portrayal (I really do not know exactly what the image, visual acustic portrayal is just a noun I came up with to portray the sentence structure I deem more encyclopedic) of Layla portraying the two clearly defined movements, the first tapering off into the second."
    • Clapton played "Layla" as part of a three song set at Live Aid in 1985. This is a one-sentence paragraph. Either expand, merge or delete it.
    • Expand lead with information from beyond the original album. Joelito (talk) 14:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Once Joel's concerns are addressed, I'll be forced to withdraw my vote due to the fact I can't find much else at fault, unless someone else can? LuciferMorgan 20:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I think I've hammered out all his concerns. I'd like to see your opinion on the expanded lead, though. Deltabeignet 02:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Two more fact requests in there Delta, and then things are covered. Joel, are you comfortable with this now? Marskell 13:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Not yet. The lead has been expanded but now it does not flow properly. Also tyhe stubby paragraphs in the last section are still there. Joelito (talk) 16:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Lead is much better now. Joelito (talk) 14:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Polish-Soviet War

Review commentary

Original author, Piotrus and MilHist already notified. Sandy 02:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This article does not meet the criterium of being stable; it is frequently the subject of heated edit wars whether this is a Polish victory or not. Errabee 22:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

FAR is not dispute resolution: the edit history shows a problem developed today. I'm just one voice here, but my recommendation is that you either list significant areas where the article fails to meet FA criteria, or take this through dispute channels: the MilHist group has a number of knowledgeable editors. Sandy 22:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should examine the history more closely. Those steps have all been taken, but the reached consensus is being altered time and again. Errabee 22:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Sandy that the current problems have started no sooner then yesterday, although as I don't like to see Featured Articles with NPOV or other tags, I would hope comments (and edits) of reviewers may speed up resolving the current conflict. As for consensus: the consensus was undisputably reached in April 2005 when the article was featured. Last vote at that time took place on 21 April, this is the article after last edit on that day; you can see the article states the war ended with a Polish victory - the point which you are disputing. Since that time the entry about the result has been expanded not only with the link to the Treaty of Riga, but also has two academic references in cite.php format; one of those entries is actually a footnote discussing the issue. Only on that example it would seem that the article has been improved from the time it was FACed, but others, like the fact that the article has moved from 4 to 55 footnotes would indicate to me that the article still fullfills FA criteria. If there is anything else you are disputing, feel free to mention it here - or on article's talk page - which, if I am not mistaken, you have not edited yet.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Wrong. The removal of the phrase Polish victory was done originally by Albrecht (see [1]), a member of the Military History project. In his edit summary he claims it is not common practice to assign victory labels, not even to those wars that have a clearer outcome. Because his edit was undone by Lysy, I simply chose to adhere to an outsider's view. This looks like POV pushing to me. Errabee 23:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I thought you've just removed the "victory" word from the article yourself ? Does it look like POV pushing to you, too ? --Lysytalk 23:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
As I stated, I simply reapplied a change from an uninvolved editor, who removed the Polish victory phrase from the infobox. Any attempt to do otherwise, looks like POV-pushing to me. Errabee 00:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I am also a member of this WikiProject, as is Halibutt who restored the mention of the result. If Albrecht would like to direct us to a wiki policy on not listing results, instead of edit summaries, it would be appreciated, especially as both of our references support Soviet defeat / Polish victory variant. Claiming a result contrary to our references seems like POV pushing to me.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I do remember that all faults aside, on the FA day, the artice did have a Peace of Riga outcome and had it ever since until yesterday Halibutt decided to resume this for whatever reasons. --Irpen 23:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Seems like your memory needs some refreshing. Article was featured on May 25 2006. Selected revisions from the week preceeding it: 17:44, May 23, 2006: Polish victory, 20:40, May 22, 2006: Polish victory; 15:28, May 18, 2006: Polish victory, and month (05:48, April 6, 2006: Polish victory). Then on a day before the main page featuring, we get the result changed ([2]). The fact that the new result survived few months and is disupted now does not lend it any credibility, it may be a simple mistake, especially as the references we have are for Soviet defeat / Polish victory.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I am very sorry, Piotrus, but your statement that the new result might be a simple mistake is very flawed. If you look at the comment, you see it was done to comply with the internal guidelines of the MilHist workgroup. And the same user who changed the result on May 25th, changed it also today with exactly the same rationale. As is evident by the reference provided, any side can claim sources to argue whether it was a Polish victory or it was indecisive. All this calls for the simple mention of the peace treaty, and people can then decide themselves. Errabee 00:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Which guidelines? Please provide us with a link and a quotation to justify this. As is evident by the references provided ([3], [4]), Polish victory was rather evident.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
You'll have to ask Albrecht for the guidelines. If he says those guidelines exist, I tend to believe him. As for the sources: why do you not address the concerns? Your answers simply restates your original statement. The very first reference provided in Polish-Soviet War states the following: The question of victory is not universally agreed on. Russian and Polish historians tend to assign victory to their respective countries. Outside assessments vary, mostly between calling the result a Polish victory and inconclusive. Lenin in his secret report to the IXth Conference of the Bolshevik Party on September 20, 1920, called the outcome of the war "In a word, a gigantic, unheard-of defeat" (see The Unknown Lenin, ed. Richard Pipes, Yale University Press, ISBN 0-300-06919-7 Document 59, Google Print, p. 106). Norman Davies called the war a "military defeat" for the Soviets (see following reference). Claiming Polish victory is very clearly POV, no matter how many sources you provide. Errabee 01:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for quoting that footnote, which I wrote some time ago (interestingly, a year ago Irpen supported the 'minor Polish victory' with footnotes version, I created the footnote as requested, but now it is not enough...). Anyway, since you ask about the sources, as anybody can see we have sources for Soviet defeat / Polish victory, the assertions for Russian historians claiming victory is not sourced (I expected Irpen or sb else would, but nobody bothered in over a year); and the footnote states (or understadees) that outide (i.e. English) sources mostly call the result a Polish victory (i.e. 2:0 acccording to our sources). Therefore as you can clearly see the references not only support the 'Polish victory' version, but they would further suggest we drop any mension of unsourced claims that the result is disputed.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
That footnote is perfectly fine, Piotrus. I probably won't be the first one commending you on the NPOV writing of that footnote. The only problem is that when the result is stated as a Polish victory, it constitutes a contradiction. You can't have it both ways. So either the footnote has to go, which will result in a severe response from the pro-Russian editors, or the Polish victory has to go. Errabee 03:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The article in the form it was featured can be most softly called a propaganda spin. After that I added plenty of references and dozens of edits trying to NPOV it but it still fails to meet NPOV. It is becoming even less so as the sourced info is persistently removed, together with the sources themselves, and hours of work on adding sourced info is fastly undone by quick and disrepectful reverts. Why am I trying to improve it? Because it bears a prestigious FA label and I want it to be a FA quality, neutral and complete. However, I find reaching this goal impossible and the FA label needs to be put down. When, and if, the neutrality is achieved through participation of more editors with the background different from its main authors, it may be voted for a FA status one more time.--Irpen
    • I prefer to think that the original reviewers knew what they were doing, and your claims of POVishness, rarely accompanied by any sources, are not likely to change my opnion until you present sources to back your statements with.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Just count how many sources of those present there are added by me and you will see plenty. Some of them are getting removed by fast and fierce reverts and I am giving up. --Irpen 23:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Any specific reliable source that you have in mind ? --Lysytalk 23:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
          • Lysy, this is called a No true Scotsman argument. If you decide which sources are reliable and which are not, by definition you will always be right. Only it does not work that way. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 00:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
            • No, Grafikm, Lysy is simply asking Irpen to cite a particular example a reliable source has been removed. Now please give us such an example or stop accusing other editors of 'fast and fierece reverts of sources'. Start by showin a source, then we can debate it's reliability.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  00:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I am uninvolved in this article, and haveno opinion as to whether the Soviets of Polish won this war. However, any article in the middle of a NPOV dispute does not exemplify the very best of Wikipedia, and as such, should have its featured status revoked until disputes are resolved. Furthermore, the very fact that such disputes are pouring over onto this page says a bit about their scale. --Zantastik talk 22:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment This is a featured article review, not FARC. People don't call for removal here, but highlight the problems of an article and suggest a method of action an editor could take to address the concerns. LuciferMorgan 23:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Point taken. The problem that this article faces is a NPOV dispute, a flaw that will doom any featured article unless it is dealt with. --Zantastik talk 23:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The template is no longer there. But in the end this is a controversial topic, and template may resurface in the future no matter what we do. Being controversial and subject from time to time to content disputes and tagging is however not a deFAcing criteria. POVed groups (of which I am a part there) may push for some chages from time to time, but the consensus of more neutral editors have decided during FAC that the article, on average, is neutral enough.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The article was FAed a year and a half ago when the requirement for FA were even more lax than they are now. Most importantly, however, is not a single editor from Russia or Ukraine took part at this discussion at the time. You can always say that this was "their" fault but now the situation changed. Several Russian and Ukrainian editors express their dissatisfaction both with the article and with how their attempts to NPOV it are met (whole scale reverts of hours of work by you have become routine). No way the article in a year ago shape would have been FAed now, as it was even further from NPOV than it is today. --Irpen 03:19, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
That's your POV; I don't think you can speak for all Russian and Ukrainians editors. And anyway, Wiki is not supposed to be some place of straw poll contest between particular nationalities, actually I would think that we should acknowledge that involved parties are much more POVed than non-involved and see what more neutral editors have to say.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
That would have been perfect provided we had some uninvolved parties with the background on the subject to judge the article for an objectivity. Most non-Poles, non-Russians, non-Ukrainians don't know anything about those events. They see the article with nice inline refs, pics, no spelling errors, i-wiki links, etc, and this all seems fine. I would not be of much help to judge the neutrality of some South American war article. I welcome attention of non-involved users but unless we get a supply of such users with sufficient background (172, where are you?), the only way to achieve the balance it to get a compromise between people from different involved nations. They likely have some clue of what happened. --Irpen 03:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
That's an excellent point, and I'm certainly an example of one of the legion of non-Ukranian, Polish or Russian editors who looks at this article just like that. This article might very well need a Request for Comment in order to get some outside eyes in here (I'm not really able to contribute much myself on this matter, due to my ignorance of it) --Zantastik talk 05:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
While for non-specialist it may be difficult to judge content, judging neutrality is much easier. Further, there are quite a few specialist in various obscure subjects in all countries, especially western ones, hence the richness of English language literature about such subject (consider, for example, Norman Davies, one of undisputed experts on the PSW subject). I believe that those specialists are much more neutral then editors (or even professional historians) from involved countries, who while may have more content knowledge then your average non-specialist from different country will also tend to be much less neutral. Therefore I prefer to see sources and editors from non-involved countries contributing to the article as much as possible.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The article became overly long. Maybe some sections could be shortened and the existing content forked into separate articles ? --Lysytalk 23:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment. A summary of the problems with this article was never provided, so I'll attempt one.

  • It appears that the POV concerns have died down, although they were noted on the original FAC nom. Can editors please let us know if POV is still a concern?
  • The article mixes reference styles and has some uncited statements, as well as broad swatches of unreferenced text. (I fixed the footnotes to conform with WP:FN with Gimmetrow's new ref fixer.)
  • Doesn't conform with WP:LAYOUT.
  • The article is very long, and appears to be a candidate for summary style. The article is 98KB overall, with 60 KB of prose, but that number is an understatement because of the extensive prose in the footnotes.
  • A whole lot of text is referenced to a professor's lecture notes, which may not be a "peer-reviewed" source? University of Kansas, lecture notes by professor Anna M. Cienciala, 2004. Last accessed on 2 June 2006. I'd like to hear what the MilHist say about the sources.

I din't examine the prose: that's just a sample of some things that could be addressed: can some of the MilHist group let us know if this article needs to move to FARC or not? Sandy 18:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Got to say, I think it needs some copyediting. Articles (a vs the) need improvement.

Buckshot06 05:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are stability (1e) POV (1d), and MoS concerns (2). Marskell 22:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Frankly, while the POV concerns are notable, they are not significant enough in this particular case to bring down the article's stature. I also have to say that I am disappointed with the very fact that there is a dispute: this was a significant Polish victory. It essentially meant that Lenin could not spread the Revolution like he wanted. Poland was practically the only major bulwark against the Red Army before it marched to the heart of Central Europe and did a good job at preventing the latter from accomplishing that feat.UberCryxic 17:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I detailed (above) issues other than POV which need to be addressed. Sandy (Talk) 15:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Still has numerous citation needed tags, uses mixed reference styles, has broad patches of unreferenced text, and is very long and could benefit from Summary Style. Is work progressing ?? Sandy (Talk) 23:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I have replaced four out of five request for citations with citations; the one that remains is a minor quote that can be removed without harming the article. I do agree that the article can benefit from some more referencens, but it has 64 for inline ones at the moment - more than quite a lot of other FAs.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and move on to some more serious issues. //Halibutt 07:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Further comment Almost three weeks ago, I mentioned that the article uses mixed reference styles (still uncorrected), doesn't conform to WP:LAYOUT (still not corrected), has 60KB of prose and could benefit from summary style, and has some uncited text. We are now beyond a month revivew, and these items haven't been addressed. I'll give it the weekend before voting to Remove. Sandy (Talk) 15:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Seems like you've not to notice my reply above. The article has no citation requested tag; what changes would you recommend to layout? As far as I can tell it conforms to the layout guidelines. As for lenght, I believe comprehensivity is more important than being short, although if you have suggestions what can be moved of to subarticles (note we already have those), by all means, please be specific.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
      • It looks like you've addressed the mixed referencing styles; I fixed the layout and corrected the footnote punctuation with Gimmetrow's new ref fixer script. I do not want to tell an experienced and knowledgeable editor where to cut the size of his article: I will be a "Keep" if you can get the prose size from the current 60KB (which IMO is a burden to the reader) to around 50KB, by making more aggressive use of summary style. Regards, Sandy (Talk) 16:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove Some of those in the Notes section aren't even inline cites, and also how hard that specific section is to read with the unnecessary text is quite atrocious. Sections of text still remain uncited too. LuciferMorgan 17:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • First of all, there is no notes section. Second, assuming you mean references, there are quotations of text, used usually in case the reference is to non-English source which the editors have translated. If there are any specific uncited parts of text you'd like referenced, please add fact templates; I have added refs to all facts that other editors requested.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So you're telling me for a simple inline citation I have to wade through sentences upon sentences of text? If you have a comment to make, make it in the body of the text. LuciferMorgan 23:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Further comment I just added some fact templates - when you've finished with them leave a message on my talk page so I can then add more fact templates for the facts I want confirmed - most are concerning specific numerical numbers. Thanks for taking the time to help this article. LuciferMorgan 00:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks. It may take me some days to go over them, I hope there are no deadlines on the FARC and I (and other editors) will have time to go over the citation requests. I will do my best to find sources for them.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Status: No deadlines if you're working. Just let people know when you feel you're done. Marskell 08:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep No major problems to keep it from FA status. Heavily cited, fairly well-written. Let's move on. --MPD01605 (T / C) 02:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove—1a. Here are examples from the lead.
    • The title wrongly uses a hyphen; an en dash is used in the article text.
    • In the second sentence, there are several problems (upper-case here), including wrong use of em dashes: "The war was a result of conflicting expansionist attempts — by Poland, whose statehood had just been re-established following the Partitions of Poland in the late 18th century, to secure territories which she had lost at the time of partitions or earlier — and by the Soviets, who aimed at control of the same territories, which had been part of Imperial Russia until the turbulent events of the Great War." Try this: "The war was a result of conflicting expansionist attempts: by Poland, whose statehood had just been re-established following the Partitions of Poland in the late 18th century, to secure territories she had lost at the time of partitions OR? earlier; and by the Soviets, who aimed TO control THE same territories, which had been part of Imperial Russia until the Great War." In any case, consider not using spaces around em dashes—where the text column is small, adjacent to maps and infoboxes, they cause problems. And the sentence is rather too long.
    • "having won the conflict with West Ukrainian People's Republic"—no, THE West ...
    • Poor sentence structure, e,g., "Meanwhile, the Bolsheviks began to gain the upper hand in the Russian Civil War and advance westward towards the disputed territories and by the end of 1919 a clear front had formed." "To" might be inserted before "advance", as well.

Someone has already complained about the writing, in the review process above, yet 1a is absent from the list of concerns here. Tony 03:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment If Tony feels criterion 1. a. isn't met, then it's up to those who wish to save it to address his concerns. And as for moving on as MPD01605 said, no frankly. There's specific opinions and numbers still uncited in the article which need addressing. Look at the actual article, and not just how many cites an article has - that's lazy reviewing as far as I'm concerned. LuciferMorgan 13:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

  • The dash doesn't seem very serious, if somebody actually understands which one to use, please do so (the article has recently been moved because of it; to me it's honestly a 'mystery'). As for copyedit, there are no English native speakers working on the article, and to my knowledge there is no wikiproject offering copyedit; thus I cannot address this issue easily (it took me over a week to find a copyeditor for my newest FAC, and I had to ask over 10 people on the talk pages before one person replied). As for referenced, we have added citation to most of those you requested; the few that remain are not critical and I think they will be cited (or removed) soon.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm very sure you'll fill the cites, and commend you for doing so. As for finding copyeditors, well you have my sympathy. They're hard to come by aren't they? LuciferMorgan 03:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I am trying my hand at copyediting this article. Please allow me some time to complete it. However, I believe the article could benefit from the use of summary style. Moving less relevant content to daughter articles. Joelito (talk) 17:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. This is obviously very comprehensive, and well-cited and I'm inclined toward keep. The prose remains so-so, however, and I'm concerned about criteria 4—there is a great deal of repetition and over-explanation. One example for the people involved in the page: cites 17 through 21 have lengthy quotes re the Międzymorze. Can those be moved to that page and away from here? I just paused my editing because my head began to ache trying to figure out where cites end and regular prose begins.
    • I know this has been up six weeks, but there's no harm in trying to tighten up the page further. Marskell 08:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I have recently added some of those cites to Międzymorze - feel free to remove text from citations in PSW and/or move more of them there. Such citations I feel more often belong on Wikiquote or quote sections than on Wikipedia.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  15:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
        • I'll note when I am finished the surgery. Marskell 06:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
          • Since the article is in more capable hands I will not copyedit it any further. Joelito (talk) 14:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove. This review has gone on for seven weeks now, there are still cite needed tags, the lead is too long, there are prose problems per Tony's analysis, and the article still needs to make better use of Summary style. Enough time has been allowed to address these issues, and progress seems stalled. Sandy (Talk) 20:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
    • There are no longer any cite needed tags (I removed unverifiable information). The lead consists of three paras, it fits requirements of WP:LEAD. Prose has been copyedit by several editors. As for summary style, please elaborate on talk of the article which sections you'd like to see further summarized.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I believe most objections have been addressed.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. The work has not stalled and Tony's specifics have been addressed with the exception of the hyphen in the title (does anyone else notice that hyphens and en dashes look exactly the same in edit mode?). It's big, so editing takes time. After a mid-level edit (basically eliminating redundancy) I think criterion 4 will be satisfied; then I'd like to go back for the micro stuff (uniform date format, use of dashes). Piotrus, note I've added three fact requests today to uncited paras—it's a bit robotic just placing them on the end of paras like this, but the level of sourcing does weaken somewhat in the last half. Marskell 07:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Unfortunately, I will not be able to edit this further for the timebeing, but I am satisfied that any remaining concerns do not rise to remove, having gone over much. When the article gets past the prelude to the actual war, it moves fairly briskly; in the prelude and related I've cut about 5 k (much of it buried notes) and I think criterion 4 is met in the early sections now. The LEAD is an appropriate length relative to the body. Yes, it's long, but "comprehensiveness not length" cuts both ways, and if you exclude the mass of notes I'd guess this tips in around 70k, which is acceptable.
  • Finally, I know it's a pain in the ass, but can you do one thing Piotrus: de-link all of the dates that are not attached to a year and/or are not seminal to this topic and choose a uniform format (1 January or January 1—I prefer the latter, but it must be consistent, in any case). Marskell 07:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Considering Marskell's work, as soon as Piotrus finishes the date de-linking, I'll change to Keep. Sandy (Talk) 09:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Pope Pius XII

Review commentary

User:Savidan, original editor, already aware. Messages left at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/to do and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism,. Sandy 19:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This article describes complex circumstances often by only one sentence. The facts are thus decontextualized, sometimes turned into the contrary. Furthermore, this article makes use of the appalling Hirshberger-image, which is POV and makes this a biased, balanced article.

Also see discussion, esp. request for opinion there. UAltmann 16:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The first criticism ("context") is too general to be actionable. Many edits which have been labelled as context involve the dumping of large swathes of European history into the article which have little relevance to Pius's actual biography. This is not an article for discussing the entire history of Europe during the first half of the 20th century, or even the history of the catholic church during that period.
The Hirshberger image is being discussed on the talk page. If you see the "request for opinion" there, you will see that the only two users who have responded so far have supported the inclusion of the image. savidan(talk) (e@) 17:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Savidan, this is not true,
Str1977 has voted to remove the image,
so has Chris. UAltmann 17:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
FearEireaan (Jtdirl) has voted to remove the image. UAltmann 05:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
As to other criticism than the image: Savidan never lets us edit without consensus, consensus with him is impossible, since he has to all kinds of critizism his stereotype answers: "not actionable" "not biographic" "no relevance" "no entire history of church/europe", the list could go on and on.
Dates are not wikified.
You cannot describe complex circumstances with only one sentence. This is simply not encyclopedic. I am referring to the section where a report of v. Weizsäcker to Berlin Gov't. is cited. Neither the content of the citation is the whole truth nor leaving out its intent. Leaving both out is turning the actual message of the citation into the opposite. In this case, it would be better to leave out the circumstance, but do not alter the facts. One time I wanted to initiate a change of this, Savidan suggested I claimed v. Weizsäcker to have been a double agent. This is nonsense, v. Weizsäcker had a vital interest to let his 'Führer' not enlarge the conflict, which would have been the case if Hitler would have declared war on the catholic world. To keep Hitler vom enlarging the conflict, he worked together with Pius XII . There are numerous sources for this, v. Weizsäcker, Blet, Lapide, etc. UAltmann 06:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I have accepted the removal of the Hirshberger image for the time being on fair use grounds. I'll wikify the dates too. As for this Weizsacker thing, what I explained to you on the talk page is that things like intent cannot be stated as objective facts in the same way that quotations can. The current quotation is undisputable--he said it. The intent is a matter of opinion/interpretation/etc. If you want to include this information you need a full citation and you need to attribute it to the author who ascribes this motive to v. Weizsacker (if your source is v. Weizsacker himself, state the way that he later explained his actions, and when).

All three of these sources that you mention are for the most part entirely out of print, and were never readily available in english. If your information instead comes from a secondary source who cites one of these three, then give a complete citation for that and at least we can work from there. savidan(talk) (e@) 18:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  • This article is not currently listed on WP:FAR. Was it ever listed correctly for review? Gimmetrow 23:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: This review was started on August 30, 2006 but was listed on September 14, 2006. Joelito (talk) 19:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This article was made FA in June, and appears to be subject to POV warring. Perhaps instead of de-listing, the article should be reverted back to its nomination state, it appears much more concise and less biased than it has become. Judgesurreal777 22:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm honestly not sure if there are still ongoing disputes about the two sections in question. Str threw up the pov flag in the "Reichskonkordat" section but hasn't replied yet since I rewrote the section, and CJGB added section dispute to the post-war orphans section, not because the content there was overtly incorrect but because he thought he could rewrite it to be more clear; that hasn't happened in a few weeks. Whenever I remove a dispute tag it seems to provoke moral outrage, but it does seem like there should be a burden on the disputer to attempt to discuss the objections in a timely manner. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I move that this FAC be closed. Judgesurreal777 01:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I move that this FAC remains open. While the article has a ton of references, there are still places which need references. LuciferMorgan 11:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness (1b), POV (1d), images (3). Marskell 18:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: There was no consensus for closing early, so here it is. Marskell 18:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

There are no actionable concerns here. This review was started by UAltmann based on some minor disputes which have long since been resolved. The Hirshberger image was removed for fair use reasons and the section disputes have been addressed. savidan(talk) (e@) 19:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • There are actionable concerns here, namely criterion 1. c. of "What is a featured article?". Yes there are a ton of references here, but given the size of the article they're real sporadic. The article needs more inline citations. Until this is done, I vote Remove. LuciferMorgan 13:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you please provide examples of sentences which require an in-line citation? Otherwise, this objection is not actionable. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate you need clarification, but my objections are actionable. I'll find some examples though. LuciferMorgan 22:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
A quick glance throws up the "Priest and Monsignor" subsection that needs inline citations, and I'm sure there's others. LuciferMorgan 22:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
First paragraph of "Archbishop and papal nuncio" needs citing. These are only examples by the way, as there's more. LuciferMorgan 22:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added a lot of citations to these sections, to the point where I think that there are too many. I am reluctant to add any more without knowing which statement you think lacks sourcing. savidan(talk) (e@) 00:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, but will Savidan please change the titles to normal case, not title case (see MoS on this). One reference is wrongly formatted in "Archbishop and Papal nuncio". Tony 13:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Missing ref— not sure what this is: Pollard, 2005, p. 70. Can the External links be trimmed down (WP:NOT, WP:EL)?
I added the Pollard ref. Don't know if I never remembered to add it or if it got removed somehow. I'm pretty happy with the EL right now, but if you have any in mind that you think are problematic, I'd be open to removing some. savidan(talk) (e@) 03:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
If all of the External links are relevant and important, I'm satisified with that, but I still see a lot of direct quotes (throughout the article) without inline cites. Sandy (Talk) 23:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe I fixed what you were referring to. Two of them were quotes where the source was named in the text of the sentence and I added references. Two fo them were these unsourced "Nazi media" quotes which some IP snuck into the article several times. I always considered that passage to be unrepentently point of view, so I just removed it. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, issues addressed. Sandy (Talk) 02:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove for now.Neutral. Sorry but issues are not addressed here; at least, until the necessary inline citations are added. I don't want to put these ugly