Contents 1 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction 2 Alchemy 3 Presuppositional apologetics 4 King James Version of the Bible 5 Erich von Manstein 6 Mozilla Firefox 7 Flag of the Republic of China 8 Turquoise 9 Max Weber 10 House of Lords 11 Palladian architecture 12 William N. Page 13 Economy of the Republic of Ireland 14 Lottie Dod 15 Restoration comedy 16 Saturn V 17 Augusta, Lady Gregory 18 Venus (planet) 19 National parks of England and Wales 20 Economy of Africa 21 John Dee 22 Soda can stove 23 Battle of the Somme (1916) 24 Robert Walpole 25 Old Swiss Confederacy 26 Marginated Tortoise 27 John Vanbrugh 28 A Hard Day's Night (song) 29 Prime Minister of the United Kingdom 30 Blackadder 31 Battle of Leyte Gulf 32 Eifel aqueduct 33 Sarajevo 34 Jonathan Wild 35 H.D. 36 Celtic Tiger 37 Super Mario 64

(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction

Self-nom. Johnleemk | Talk 09:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support, and why not?--Crestville 22:28, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. cool. dab 13:32, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Excellent, as always. Ambi 14:09, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• I'd like to see more on the cover versions. More than one sentence paragraphs, you know. I think that, during the famous performance in which Britney Spears stripped down to that flesh-colored bodysuit and sang "Oops!...I Did It Again", she started out by singing her cover of "Satisfaction". I think I'm remembering that correctly, although I guess the music wasn't the foremost thing in my mind. Wasn't that at the MTV Video Music Awards, in 2000, I guess? Add something about that. Everyking 11:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I can't find any mention of that at all on Google. This and this are the closest I could get, which isn't much. Johnleemk | Talk 12:04, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Christ in Heaven, I assure you it happened, I distinctly recall it. Well, I may be insane, one can never rule it out. The problem, I imagine, is that you searched for "bodysuit". You ought to know to keep search terms as simple as possible so as to be more inclusive. Search for "Satisfaction", "Oops", "Video Music Awards", "strip"/"stripped", "Britney", that sort of thing together. Everyking 12:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I assure you, I did search without the bodysuit keyword (I just linked to te search with bodysuit in it because it yielded more than a few relevant results). And when I did another search... the only thing sounding like the incident you described was this. Considering how hard it's been to find a mention of this incident, I'm beginning to doubt whether the incident's notable enough for the article. That it happened is something confirmed. That it's viewed as noteworthy enough for a mention seems highly dubious, however. Ah, but what's this? Still, I doubt that this is relevant enough for the article. For the Britney Spears article on a sudden image change, maybe. But from what I've seen, few people associate her new image with "Satisfaction"; they associate it with "Oops!...". Johnleemk | Talk 12:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Sure it's important, it was big news then. If you're going to mention the song, you might as well mention that performance. Everyking 12:55, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • • I wasn't asked, but I remember the strip down, and I remember a massive amount of press coverage of the strip, but pretty much no one mentions the song she was doing before the strip. I think the news was her faux nudity, and not the performance of the set-up song. Geogre 14:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Weak support: The "Lyrics and melody" section is imprecise, and the balance of description of musical composition and lyrical content is mismatched. One reason the song is one of the greats is that it marries a great hook with a great lyric, and they're equally important. Catchy tunes get #1 hits, but they don't get greats (e.g. "Funky Town"), and intense lyrics get #1 hits, but they don't get greats (e.g. the very "important" songs like "Eve of Destruction"). As many people bought the song for its anger as for its beat (it has always seemed to me that the anger and the desperation of youth were the real greatness, but I'm a lyrics person). Certainly one of the reasons the song keeps getting covered is the lyric, as each artist attempts to recast "satisfaction" itself into her or his own context (certainly a reason Devo's version is one of the greatest covers is the fact that their alteration of the music was to emphasize the altered context of the frustration). The other gripe is with the "Covers" section. It almost seems suicidal to go into any listing of the covers. It's easier to list the rock bands who haven't covered it than the list all who have, and the article is inviting every reader to come along and add in the one he or she remembers. Finally, the writing is a little rapt for me. However, I do support the nomination. Geogre 14:28, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Weak support: I'd love to see the "Lyrics and melody" section stronger, but I can't think what to do, or I'd do it... -- Jmabel | Talk 09:24, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
• No satisfaction until the lyrics are in the article. How can you write about a song without the lyrics? Are you serious? prometheus1
  • ...which would make this article a copyright violation, making this objection patently unactionable. Ambi 12:23, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alchemy

I came across this while admiring Gold, below. A good summary of a prodigious amount of information. Not perfect, tackles the subject solely from the perspective of a historian, but then other perspectives may be difficult to pull off seriously. I find it the equal of some currently-featured articles. 05:48, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC) (I think the nominator is User:Sj.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen ( talk)] 20:15, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC))

• Support good article, could probably stand to have someone copy edit it first. And is there any way to get the first image at the top lightened, its awfully dark. Alkivar 06:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• support--Alexandre Van de Sande 17:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Wow, incredible article! Masterfully organized, does justice to a fascinating subject. Just a few pedantries: 1) I don't understand what "the division of the world into four basic elements was as much a geometric principle as a geological one" means. The geometric link is no help. 2) Something seems to have gone wrong with the paragraph about Isaac Newton and alchemy and astrology. I don't know if the paragraph is the raked-over embers of an edit war, but it looks a bit like it. 3) Are you sure you want page numbers in the parenthetic references (consistently punctuated wrong, btw)? I think the principle should be that all scholarly apparatus is as-needed only, since it weighs down the text, Wikipedia is not a learned journal. In other words, leave out page no's if the place can easily be found using the book's index, include them if it can't. But that may already be the principle, only the authors know. 4) The format of the References section would be good enough for just any article, but I think actual Manual of style recommended format would be best for a Featured article; or, at any rate, there should be full bibliographical information (=including publisher and place). Support.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (now happy)] 20:08, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The above are objections with specific rationales that can be addressed, how about it? (Thanks PRIIS for fixing 4.) Sheesh, just because I put it nicely... --[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)] 19:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • For 2), I removed that whole paragraph. It was one big non-sequitur. I moved the link to the Newton Occult article to the other mention of Newton in the Overview section. 3) I'm afraid to touch the parenthetical refs--maybe only the person who originally contributed the article (who seems to be long gone) could really make judgements on that. Unless someone with more nerve is willing to either yank them out or actually follow up on them--they seem to be there only because the original article began life as a term paper (according to the Talk page). As to 1), your guess is as good as mine! PRIIS 23:06, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Well, Wikipedia shouldn't promulgate a sentence that nobody can understand, I've removed it. I don't have the nerve to touch the page numbers either. I'll fix the parenthetic ref punctuation sometime. Thanks!--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)] 03:57, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Abstain Good work, no doubt about it. But I think that period of renaissance, Edward Kelley and such is much too brief. I will try to recall, verify and add some information, until then I will abstain. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:56, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support - good work. Andre (talk) 23:58, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Nice work. Filiocht 10:51, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Maybe the top picture could be enlarged, or cropped? It currently is a bit obscure, and I only saw what was on the picture when I clicked on it. Jeronimo 20:09, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. easily. (enlarged image). dab 20:16, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Zerbey 23:27, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Disclosure: I did some work on the references. I also tried to lighten the image, but I suspect the effect was too garish and it got switched back. I also did some formatting of the talk page a long time ago. PRIIS 04:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Fun to read. ReallyNiceGuy 18:40 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I found it awhile ago after reading up on Fullmetal Alchemist of all things and really enjoyed it. Well-written, very fun. Reene (リニ) 13:16, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

Presuppositional apologetics

This was nominated two months ago by me -- it was eventually voluntarily removed from FAC so that I and the article's principal author could work on more clearly defining apologetics, more fairly presenting the criticisms of this particular approach, and fixing some issues people had with unfamiliar vocabulary. I believe we've addressed this, so this is a self-nomination. The reading level is still reasonably high, but I think acceptably so. The only potential objection I am anticipating is the lack of a picture, but I can't envision a picture that would add to the article (except perhaps of a theologian who helped develop it, but we haven't found one yet). Jwrosenzweig 02:33, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support Object. 1.) Those resources that were actually used as references for additional material or to fact check material in the article need to be explicitly listed as such and not lumped in with those that were not. The references section is the accepted way to do that. 2.) Only two schools of PA are discussed, even though the article specifically states there are others. What about them? Are they so insignificant that they warrant nothing more than saying they exist? If so, that is a POV that needs to be cited to a source. - Taxman 19:28, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • I've left a note for the article's principal author on the article's talk page, since I was not involved in the creation of the article -- I don't know which books were used as references, and I don't know if there really are more versions of PA, as the article asserts (or how influential they are). If, as I have a hunch is correct, the article was written with the benefit of having read all of the books mentioned (although they were not cited specifically in the text), should they all be "references"? I'm unclear on that point. The second one, I'll get to work addressing. Jwrosenzweig 23:34, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • P.S. I've looked into it a little more. The article stated "There are at least two systems of apologetics..." known as presuppositional -- looked awfully weak to me. I can find no evidence of a third branch of PA. I imagine the words "at least" were inserted because any theologian could alter a few fine points of a school of thought and claim it as "presuppositional" but his/her particular variety of it. I decided they looked like weasel words and took them out -- until we see any evidence of a third school of thought, I don't think it's worth implying that one exists. Perhaps this addresses your second point, Taxman? If you think I went about it wrong, tell me -- I can do more in-depth searching if you suspect I was wrong to remove the wording, and that other schools of PA exist. Jwrosenzweig
      • If all the major references in the field say that those two are the two major schools of the subject, then that is fine. Then cite one of them to a statement such as "The two major schools of PA are .... (Doe 1976)". But yes, I think it needs a good search to see if there are other important shools unless you can find that something akin to the above example is well accepted in the field. Otherwise it is POV to fail to cover a notable branch of a subject. - Taxman 13:51, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
        • I still haven't found said citation, but I hope to soon. I have, however, added a reference section for some recent additions of mine -- I know it doesn't cover the entire article, but perhaps it partially resolves the objection, at least? I'm curious to hear your response. Jwrosenzweig 22:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • That's pretty good for me. So all the sources you've seen, no other ones mention any other major schools of PA? What makes you say those are the major schools when Bahnsen and Frame also contributed? The answer to that will probably answer my above question. By the way the new history section telling us when this school of thought came out is an excellent addition. Great work. Is saying in the intro it is a 20th century school of thought problematic to you? I think that is helpful to tell the reader straight away what era the school of thought is in/from. As for my point 1 above, at least put the sources you have used personally in properly cited form in a 'References' section, websites can be included. - Taxman 00:37, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
            • So far, every mention of PA either talks about it as though it had no origin (people have so little consideration for us wiki researchers), or else it traces PA to either Clark or Van Til (and most mentions of Clark note that Van Til predates him). Nothing says it quite explicitly enough, though, for me to quote a site as defining those two schools as the only two. I would call them the two major schools, as Bahnsen, Frame, and Robbins (though differing in minor points from their teachers) essentially present themselves and their perspectives as being unified with that of their teacher. Their intense focus on defending the ideas of their predecessor indicates (in my opinion) that Van Til and Clark provide the dominant two views of presuppositional apologetics. I'm fine with the mention in the intro, and will add it in my next pass. And a references section will be duly added. :-) Jwrosenzweig 02:34, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
              • Taxman, I've added the references I consulted and altered the intro. :-) Jwrosenzweig 22:04, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Mild objections: First, I find plenty of evidence of three types of apologetics. My F. A. Cross ed. of The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church says that apologetics has traditionally fallen to three endeavors, "(1) to show that it is more reasonable to have a religion than not; (2) to show that christianity can give a more rational account of itself than any other religion; (3) to show that it is more reasonable to profess orthodox Christianity than any other form." However, my objections are two fold. One is easy to fix, the other not. i) The reference to Fideism in a dismissive tone, as if it were a childish gesture, was wrong. Fideism is not an intellectually or philosophically empty concept, and it's arguable, in fact, that existentialist Christian apologetics, which is no slouch in the brains department, is ultimately fideism with its emphasis on mysticism. ii) The harder subject is the general notability of this type of apologetics. The article says at the outset that this is a Protestant development, but it's clear in the article that it can only be a Protestant one, and, at that, a fundamentalist one. How prevalent is this type of endeavor? How much is it running the field now? How stiff is the opposition? I would imagine that the old churches would be a bit out of the loop with this, as it is a pretty hostile type of apologetic (and arguably not apologetic at all, since it works from within a closed system and demands that all listeners do the same). I can't really see a severe minority development (which I gather is recent) in apologetics as a Featured Article if it doesn't at least allow breathing room for the rest of the churches. Geogre 03:48, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • George, we're talking about specific forms of this specific type of apologetics, not types of apologetics in general. - Taxman 13:51, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
    • I agree with Taxman on the initial point. On Fideism, Geogre, I'll definitely look at it and see what I can do -- it shouldn't be referred to dismissively. The final objection, however, doesn't seem actionable to me -- unless I misunderstand you, your objection is that this field of apologetics appeals to only certain denominations. I have no control over which denominations accept or reject this practice. I don't know what you mean by "old churches" -- I'm confused, in fact, by the entire objection....perhaps it's your objection to this kind of apologetics, but I don't see it as an objection to this as an FA. I'm not arguing it should be featured based on what it's about -- I can't envision this article ever making the Main Page. But it's my opinion that it's essentially done and well written, and I thought that was fundamentally what an FA was supposed to be. Jwrosenzweig 14:58, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • P.S. I removed the Fideism comment -- I couldn't see a way to include the comment in that context without either leaving it somewhat dismissive or else going to lengths to explain a more complex definition of Fideism. As the mention was an aside intended to further illustrate a point already made, I decided to cut it. Hopefully that resolves your objection? Jwrosenzweig
        • It may solve one objection, it gives rise to another. To those who know about both fideism and presuppositionalism, the two seem to be very similar if not identical. Fideism is, at least to me, the honest answer given by a believer who understands that arguments for the existence of God are all flawed. Presuppositionalism seems to be a system built on a fideist base. At least, this is what Reymond's New Systematic Theology seems to claim. -- Smerdis of Tlön 21:30, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • Hmmm, well, if Fideism needs to be reintegrated as you suggest (thanks for the note, btw), it certainly needs to appear in a different context than it did initially (the context Geogre objected to). Once again, I'll go back to the drawing board and see what I can come up with. Ihcoyc, if you can include the comment from Reymond on PA's talk page (or else add it to the article) I'd really appreciate that -- don't own a copy myself, but it would be great to add the perspective to the article. Jwrosenzweig 00:17, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I'll try to be more precise. Presuppositional apologetics is a narrow field. That's fine, and certainly no reason to object. However, I feel like it is not presented in the general context sufficiently. The old churches are the various Orthodox Christian churches and the Anglican churches -- i.e. those prior to Luther. In fact, however, it would appear that this field is even more specialized, requiring a Zwinglian or Calvinist background. My objection is that some placement of this development is necessary, rather than merely desirable. When did it arise (I gather that it's new)? Does it have active opposition? Is it widespread now and dominant among Protestant apologetics, or is it merely a hardline expression of the fundamentalist movement? At the very, very outset a mild statement appears indicating that this is predominantly Protestant, but I get the impression that it is much more than that. Without a location in the general field, especially in terms of novelty and support, I remain a reluctant objector. I do think it's a well written article. Indeed, I would have thought it unnecessary to define Apologetics, but I think that any movement needs to be located in the general context. A few sentences would be all that is necessary. I appreciate letting up on the poor Fideists. It looked like they were being a punchline in that sentence, and I know the authors know more than to have meant it that way. Geogre 18:20, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let me give you an example. From the "Varieties of" subhead: "There are two systems of apologetics that commonly are called presuppositional. The first -- and by far the most widely followed -- was developed by <the X church or at least X nation> Cornelius Van Til <when?> and his students, especially <denomination theologian> John Frame and <ibid> Greg Bahnsen." That would give the reader a sense of when this school emerged. Later on, an "Opposition to" or "Doubts about" or "Place in general apologetics" subhead would give the reader an idea of whether or not this type of apologetics is triumphant, emregent, or persistent. Geogre 21:36, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• • • Ah, sorry I misunderstood! Makes perfect sense -- I'll fall to work right away. Jwrosenzweig 22:21, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Geogre, I've written a section called "History of presuppositional apologetics" (shifting some text up in the article and adding quite a bit more) to help place the movement in time and to suggest its general area of influence. Please tell me how it looks. :-) Jwrosenzweig 22:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Full support: Excellent! This gives me a good way of locating this development and an idea of how well it has thrived. A naive reader looking at the article will realize that this is not fringe but will also recognize that it is located in the Calvinist tradition. I'm delighted to give support to an excellent theological article. Geogre 03:17, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Excellent article, though the wording in places is a bit...pretentious isn't the word I'm looking for, but along those lines. In any case, this is a minor quibble. Ambi 23:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I love it when I find something that describes something I didn't previously have a word for, especially when it is described so well.--ZayZayEM 03:25, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

King James Version of the Bible

This article failed last time, mainly because of objections that it underestimated the KJV's influence on modern English. I believe those have been fixed. I did some work on this article, but at the most, I've contributed only a couple of paragraphs worth of prose to it. Johnleemk | Talk 09:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support now. Thanks to all concerned for acting on my objections so completely. Filiocht 13:25, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC) Object again. What is still missing from this article is the fact that the KJV set the standard for how literate English prose should be written, a standard that held good more or less until the advent of modernism. It also strongly influenced the writing of poetry, impacting on poetic diction and the range of images available to poets. Specifically, some discussion of the impact of the KJV on writers as diverse as John Bunyan, John Milton, Herman Melville, John Dryden and William Wordsworth would be a minimum requirement. This is, to me, infinitely more important than a discussion of how the readability level of the KJV fits into a foreign educational system's class grading structure. Filiocht 14:49, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
  • How is the article now? Johnleemk | Talk 18:58, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • FWIW, references to Milton and Bunyan may be wide of the mark; both men were Geneva Bible readers, and in the original all of Bunyan's quotations in Pilgrim's Progress are Geneva, not KJV. -- Smerdis of Tlön 20:08, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • yeah, Milton, as a contemporary, will rather have had similar influences than drawn on the KJV. dab
    • I'm interested in seeing if Filiocht has alternative sources about the Bible of choice for Bunyan and Milton. I think it's likely the authors he cites are based on a commonly-quoted paragraph from the Merit Student's Encyclopedia. [1] Johnleemk | Talk 06:20, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I'd never heard of the Merit Student's Encyclopedia before. Milton's rhythms are widely recognised as owing a lot to the KJV and the Bunyan reference is from EB. The others are from my own reading, and I could add any number of others. The fact is that every writer of English prose after 1611 was influenced to some degree by the translation, and the impact was immediate. Because it was addressed to the widest audience possible it provided authors with a model for writing prose that moved away from the existing model of scholars addressing scholars to a new paradigm; the author addressing the common reader. This, in turn, became one of the aspects of 'conventional' writing that the modernists were reacting against, though even James Joyce nods in the direction of the KJV. I suspect that part of the problem is that the editors involved in creating this article are coming at it from a religious perspective while I, having no interest in that view, see the KJV as a cultural artefact. As I said above, this objection was raised last time round and simply not addressed. Filiocht 08:56, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC) now addressed Filiocht 13:25, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
        • hey Filiocht, this may be unfair in reply to a FAC vote, but you would seem the perfect editor to insert your knowledge on this into the article. dab
          • I agree, but I don't think that's necessary as I've done my best to parrot his statements (and that of some other references I've found) in the article. :-p Johnleemk | Talk 13:05, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral Support: I agree with Filiocht; however, I think that the points he adresses can be shortly summarized with a link to a Main article (e.g. Literary impact of the KJV). Other things that I stubled accross:

• the King James Version uses words such as "ye", "thee", "thou", "thy" and "thine", and uses phrases such as "Fear thou not/Fear ye not" (instead of "Do not be afraid"). "words/phrases such as" is a rather clumsy way of putting it. the articles focus cannot be to treat the grammar of Early Modern English. I suggest you just say that it uses the old 2nd person singular pronoun (instead of "words such as") and link to Thou and History of the English_language.
• the quote: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.": are the pronouns referring to God really in lowercase in the original??

ok, sorry. Image:KJV Psalm 23 1 2.jpg. dab

• the article is very long for a FA (not too long, however); other Main articles could be created to export stuff too, also taking some of the burden off this article, making it easier to reach FA standard consistently.

However, I think that the article is very fair compared with today's "FA" (Harappan civilization), and will gladly change my vote to support if these points are addressed. dab 15:58, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• How is the article now? I think the article is just right as it is; perhaps the names of the translators could be exported elsewhere, but other than that, I think there's a "just nice" amount of material right now. And yes, the quote is accurate; see it for yourself on Bible Gateway. Johnleemk | Talk 18:58, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"makes liberal use of old second person singular pronouns"? I would say it just uses a 2nd sg pronoun whenever the original text has one.

I still think you should accommodate Filiocht, and I'm not sure squeezing the authors into the intro is the way to go. A good example would also be the Book of Mormon which slavishly copies the (at the time of its composition archaic) KJV style ;o)

but these are trifles in my book. It's good enough for me to change my vote to support. After all "FA" != perfect. dab 19:33, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Zerbey 23:14, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. PRIIS 14:21, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Great article; didn't notice any problems. Spangineer 21:02, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Even I, a bloodthirsty atheist, got quite interested. Answered all my questions. Dbiv 01:17, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Erich von Manstein

Partial self-nomination, von Manstein is one of the most important military leaders of World War II and of the 20th century. GeneralPatton 05:24, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object.Concur. As a military buff (and you know I am because you've seen the articles I edit), I realize von Manstein's importance...but he is not going to mean much to most Wikipedians. -Joseph (Talk) 06:41, 2004 Nov 14 (UTC)
  • ...so...? What's your objection? →Raul654 22:10, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • Well, that's not the point with features articles, the point is that they represent the best work of wiki, regardless of how many people know about their subject. For instance, look at the Japanesei toilet article, obscure topic, but a good entry. It is about quality not popularity. Also, this reasoning is against wiki policy, for it states that "All objections must give a specfic rationale that can be addressed", as is not the case here. GeneralPatton 07:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Quibble: Is there really only one reference? Much better! Thank you! Zerbey 02:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Reference section has been expanded, citing the best books available. GeneralPatton 04:24, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Have those references actually been used to expand and/or fact check the material currently in the article? If not, it is intellectually dishonest to list them as references. - Taxman 14:26, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
      • That I’ve used them, then the answer is yes, I could have listed more than a dozen other works that are not as helpful. Also, I believe the reference section should make it easier for someone who's interested to find out more on the subject matter. GeneralPatton 16:08, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Excellent. If you actually used these others then I think they would make a good addition. While making it easier to find more about the subject is noble, I don't feel it should override the importance of citing all sources used in the article, or of using and citing those you have available. - Taxman 21:49, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Support--enceladus 03:37, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Object Support. (1) "was a General, and later a Field Marshal" is a strange way to put it (he was also an ensign, a lieutenant, a captain etc). Perhaps "was a military officer", or plain "was a Field Marshal" would do. (2) The lead section should say a bit more about him: he's famous for more than just arguing with Hitler. (3) Wikipedia has many article on the two world wars. Please link to them when appropriate. For example, you write that he fought in the "attack on Verdun", but wouldn't it be better to link to our article on the battle of Verdun? There are other missing links, notably Third Battle of Kharkov. (4) The big pictures are rather overwhelming: perhaps 300px would be better. (5) "This was considered his first mark of genius" Considered by whom? (6) References should follow the format recommended at Wikipedia:Cite sources. Gdr 14:07, 2004 Nov 15 (UTC)
  • 1 and 2 have been fixed so far, im working on others. Thanks for your imput. GeneralPatton 15:05, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I've now linked both the Battles of Verdun and Kharkov as well as some other articles. Working on the References. I ought to stress that your link is the "proposed" not the "accepted" citation style guide, thus I don’t think the articles are obliged to follow that exact style. GeneralPatton 15:59, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Removed 5 as its redundant, the text speaks for itself. GeneralPatton 15:53, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • And the photos really don't look this good when they're smaller, a lot of fine detail is lost, particularly because of their horizontal format. And they're really not a major bandwidth burden, since together they're around 120kb. GeneralPatton 15:09, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral, leaning toward object, but I am open to being shown I am incorrect. Seems a bit whitewashed. He was convicted of war crimes, but the intro fails to mention this seemingly very important fact. He was also a member of the Nazi party was he not? I know we have to be careful about guilt by association, but not mentioning it at all also seems POV. Otherwise looks good, well written and researched. - Taxman 21:49, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • He was never a member of the Nazi party, that's one of the reasons why he had no trouble in the West Germany, unlike some other of the Reich’s Field Marshals. For the first few years of the formation of Bundeswehr, he was seen as the unofficial chef of staff, and even later his birthday parties were regularly attended by official delegations of Bundeswehr and NATO bigwigs, such as Hans Speidel who was NATO SACEUR; The Supreme Allied Commander Europe from 1957 to 1963 and Adolf Heusinger who was NATO CMC; The Chairman of the Military Committee from 1961-1964. This wasn't the case with the party card carrying pro-nazi Feld Marshals such as Milch, Schörner, von Küchler, List... who were disregarded and forgotten after the war. GeneralPatton 02:31, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The intro now mentions the trial. GeneralPatton 14:58, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • The above needs a mention in the article. Gdr 10:59, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)
      • Intro now also mentions his trial and advisory career for the new German government. Lupo 08:34, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Neutral. Article has improved considerably, but I think the points not yet struck out below are still areas of improvement. This article is a good start, but still needs lots of work. I'm worried about the neutrality, and the language needs may need work. Already in the intro: "mastermind behind the ingenious plan for the German invasion of France"—"ingenious" is a judgemental term that should go. "Eventually even Hitler had enough of him"—can't we formulate that better? (Changed it myself.) Manstein increasingly had serious differences with Hitler over questions of strategy, and tried repeatedly to lobby for the institution of an "Oberbefehlshaber Ost" that would have planned the overall strategy. This brought him in direct rivalry with Hitler. (Incidentally, I can find only a minor mention of his ideas on strategy except Fall Gelb in the article.) (Added a little myself, but the WWII section could do with a little bit more.) "Operation Northern Lights": "...where Manstein's inferior forces managed to outmaneuver superior Soviet forces..." without any mention of the fact that the goal of this operation was to take Leningrad by cutting it off from its supplies and that this operation did not succeed is too heavily biased for my taste. The WWII section is too much of a list of battles. It lacks coverage of Manstein's strategic ideas, his political views. In his autobiography, his thesis is basically that if the Generals had been in charge of strategy, the war on the eastern front could have been won. That needs mentioning, (Is mentioned now) together with some renowned historians' views of that credo. (BTW, Manstein expressed this opinion already already during the war, cf. "Oberbefehlshaber Ost" above.) His refusal to become involved in complotts within the Wehrmacht to dismiss Hitler ("Preussische Feldmarschälle meutern nicht.") deserves more coverage, too. (Done now.) In general, I think before this article can be featured, the critical biography at [2] needs to be taken into account: facts reported there need to be checked for accuracy and incorporated into the article. (Mostly done.) BTW, I added this link to the article, and it was removed pronto on the grounds that it was in German. (It's back there...) Lupo 16:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Oh, and another point: the images used in the article do not have sources. Lupo 16:08, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Most images still don't have sources. Even WWII images need sources. Lupo 09:54, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • You seem to forget to mention that I’ve also removed the link to the Achtung Panzer bio, that was highly positive in its portrayal of von Manstein. The form of this biography is pretty much to report the facts, leaving excessive criticism and or excessive praise out of it and letting the reader judge for himself. And about "ingenious", so according to you the invasion of France was not a success? And it's not my insertion, its something B. H. Liddell Hart wrote. GeneralPatton 17:06, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • A criticism by a valid source is an important part of th article. If you cite it properly and you are relatively balanced about the criticisms then it is not POV. What is POV is to leave out valid, important, information. You can attack Lupo for conspiracy[3], but the facts that he raises need to be discussed in the article. - Taxman 17:45, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
      • Err, I'm not attacking Lupo for conspiracy. I’m just saying he's making this look like I'm David Irving, which is ironic since last week when I nominated my Irving article, I was accused of being anti-Irving biased and ADL’s lapdog. So I guess I must be doing something right. Also, That article by Michael Schröders doesn’t reveal anything shocking or new, and is pretty much about how von Manstein’s memoirs and trial defense were self-serving and skewed in his favor, but that’s how all memoirs and defense strategies tend to be. GeneralPatton 19:22, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Answer on my talk page. Lupo 19:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The article also doesn't trump down on "Operation Northern Lights" just as it doesn't trump up on the Crimean Campaign. It's an effort to make a balanced, fact based military biography, without either taking sides or being too judgmental. GeneralPatton 17:19, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • It's not a question of "trumping up/down" something. It's a question of giving the reader some background. And I do think that by including some of the facts mentioned in Schröders' article we can arrive at a much more differentiated portrayal of the man. It is rather one-dimensional right now. Schröders' article certainly isn't shocking—but why should it be? That's completely besides the point. It's a scholarly article, with lots of properly referenced citations. The point is that Schröders shows another side of von Manstein, which is currently completely lacking from the article. Lupo 20:18, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • And that is? Where exactly have I failed? Give me a concrete list of problems, point by point, and I'll work on it. GeneralPatton 20:20, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • I'm trying to give constructive criticism on that article. I have given some concrete points in my original rationale for my objection, and I have explained what I think would need to be included. That, however, needs research. Maybe a round of peer review might help? Finally I'd like to point out the Forum on Erich von Manstein, a scholarly discussion forum of historians with lots of additional information (unfortunately in German again) and pointers to additional sources, hosted by the "News Service for Historians". Lupo 14:41, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
          • More comments and questions on the article's talk page. Lupo 08:34, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object There is almost no info on year 1939 and his participation in the Polish September Campaign. This should be expanded before this is a complete article worthy of being featured. In what battles did he participate before and after Siege of Warsaw (1939) (and why doesn't this article mention him at all ATM)? What units where encircled and destroyed afterwards?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:16, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • He was Gerd von Rundstedt’s chief of staff, that means a headquarters job, not a frontline job. I’ll expand it within 24 hours. GeneralPatton 07:11, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • It's been expanded now, do you want more? GeneralPatton 14:25, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Abstain Better. Just stress what you wrote here (it is not easy to understand it from the article), and perhaps you could elaborate on how well did his plan work? After this is done I will likely support this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 15:05, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Expanded on that stuff. GeneralPatton 06:24, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • Support now. Good job. In the mean time, take a look at the battlebox at Polish September Campaign and list of battles in it, you may want to ilink some of them relevant to the plans and battles mentioned in the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:41, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mozilla Firefox

I just fixed up the writing for this a little, and I now think it would be a good featured article. It would be nice if we could feature it on the main page sometime soon, also. Andre (talk) 21:49, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. For NPOVs sake it should mention that Firefox too has been found to have some serious security bugs (albeit in beta). (added some myself) Also Microsoft's thoughts on the browser should be reflected (I don't think they've commented a lot on it, but the Australian manager said something to the effect that they did not consider it a threat to IE shortly after its release). The SeaMonkey codename is used unnecessarily in a few places. Possibly its relation to the Camino project should be expanded slightly (right now it says only that Camino is not XUL based. Camino developers feel that XUL doesn't allow them to give the proper look-and-feel for the Mac platform.) Quite a few people have referred to Firefox (in a positive sense) as a "Trojan horse" of Open Source. This point of view should be mentioned. — David Remahl 22:38, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. The article does not go into detail on any of the features of Firefox. Compare to the featured article on Emacs, which has lots of detail on the interface, customization, internals, etc., all of which this article seems to be lacking. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 22:51, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Changed my vote to Support in light of the recent changes to the article. I think the "Delicious delicacies" section is still too prominent, but whatever. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 04:35, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
• Support Currently a large chunk of the article is taken up with the version table and market adoption. Very little is on the subject of features etc. --enceladus 01:09, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • I've tried addressing these concerns. How's it doing? Andre (talk) 02:28, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
    • As stated above, the Emacs article is a good example of a software article. At the moment the features is just a list. Maybe some product comparisons with Opera and IE.--Enceladus 02:33, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)
    • Also include what Mozilla App Suite features have been dropped / offloaded to extensions. — David Remahl 02:55, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Object. The features section needs some serious expansion first. It's getting there, though. Zerbey 16:57, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I can't really expand the features section to the degree that Emacs has - Emacs is a far more complex program than Firefox. Andre (talk) 22:31, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
    • Object. As someone who was intimately involved in Mozillazine until recently, I've drastically expanded the features. There are a few holes, notably in the references (and the lack of a proper mention of Mozillazine), so I cannot support this article yet, but it's definitely getting there. I've also added a few caveats in Firefox's features — a quick run through Bugzilla should yield several more notable ones we can include. Johnleemk | Talk 12:05, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral. Decent article, the table's great, but 1) Not quite NPOV. I know that Firefox is the bees knees, but the article seems a little too sympathetic. Surely the browser must have weaknesses and critics? Aren't there any Opera / Konqueror fans who can find fault? For example, IE gets hammered in the lead section; M$'s response appears tucked away at the end of the article; the "Features" section seems to be a list followed by a paragraph of how Firefox is better than other browsers. 2) More screenshots would be useful 3) "it has been referred to as a gateway drug or a Trojan horse for the adoption of open source software. — OK, by who? And is it a common enough assessment to warrant placing in the first paragraph? — Matt 11:20, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) — Matt 14:24, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I appear to have found at least one reference to Firefox being a 'gateway drug' of open source software: http://www.nyunews.com/opinion/columnists/8348.html, the student newspaper of New York University. Personally I don't think it should be included in the lead section but maybe it should be rewritten to something like "Mozilla Firefox is often a computer users first experience with open source software"--Enceladus 20:36, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
• Not to nag, but, is this article far along enough yet for all you objectors? Andre (talk) 19:16, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. The noteworthy issues section needs NPOVing and possible renaming. Norman Rogers 22:35, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • What's POV about it, and what's wrong with the name? Andre (talk) 05:08, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
  • I must concur with Andre; what's wrong with it? Does it provide too brief a view of Firefox's weaknesses, or is it too anti-Firefox-ish for your tastes? As a Firefox fan, I can say that more than few of those things mentioned do piss me off, and I can assure you that people do frequently complain about them on the Mozillazine forums. Johnleemk | Talk 11:46, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I now find said section NPOV enough to support. Norman Rogers 01:01, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Give an objective overview of Firefox, e.g. history, known issues, etc minghong ( talk) 07:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support Best Browser and also a very good article. --ThomasK 11:37, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
• Support This article has really improved over the last few days. I certainly think it is a good article, and is quite NPOV to me, why over-report on Firefox vulnerabilities? If there aren't many, no need to dedicate huge portions of the article to it. Khlo 22:09, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Needs work on structure; some information is presented in seemingly arbitrary order. That's the only real problem I can think of, though. Fredrik | talk 23:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Several people (as far as I can tell) have been working on modifying the structure. I think it's better now. Might need some polishing ..? Merged it with Delicious Delicacies, too. :-) Don't know if it was the right decision or not, but it was a decision, anyway.
  • My objection has been addressed. Support. Fredrik | talk 19:20, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support This article is quantitative and neutral as well as an excellent introduction to the software. LadyAphelion| 1:54, 22 Nov 2004 (EST)
• Object It's riddled with advocacy. If the article were moved to, say, Why Firefox is a much better browser than Internet Explorer then I'd support it for featured staus. It needs some careful attention to tone, to balance, and to selection of things to include/exclude. Tannin 07:12, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC) (Added later) Much improved now, but still not an article of any particular quality. Competent, detailed, but not outstanding. Tannin 11:32, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Thorough, neutral, and much improved. αγδεε(τ) 10:40, 2004 Nov 22 (UTC)
• Support. It's a nice article, and Wikipedia should be proud to spread information about high-quality alternatives to dominant commercial products. --VerdLanco 18:56, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Has improved substantially in the past couple of days. CheekyMonkey 20:32, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. The article looks great, has enough information. --Toomin 07:24, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. This article has improved a lot over the last couple of months and I feel it's now ready for the prime time. --RichCorb 20:15, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. The article is well-written, well-organized, and informative. It is a great model for all Wikipedia articles. --C. Duben 00:35, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Fantastic article. Has length problems though - it'd be nice to see it broken down in summary style. Ambi 01:29, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Can't ignore the fact that it is one of the most popular pieces of free software of our time and the article therefore deserves a place on the front page. --Chrisblore 18:34, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I'll admit I found this article because it was linked to from spreadfirefox.com, but as a Wikipedian I do think this article is good. However, beware of sock puppets who may vote for this article. Alex Krupp 00:53, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)

Flag of the Republic of China

Good article. Very informative. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 00:01, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

• References, please. Jeronimo 07:07, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • addressed. --Jiang 20:16, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. I feel that the prose in this article is not up to snuff. The lead section, particularly, is not terribly clear. The material is interesting, but I don't think this quite meets the criteria of "brilliant prose" quite yet. --Eudyptes 23:32, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • has been addressed --Jiang 16:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. (I've just tweaked the text a little.) -- ALoan (Talk) 13:51, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • you sure? i don't see an edit by you. --Jiang 03:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Damn - must not have saved. Done again. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:18, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Thank you for the changes. I withdraw my objection and am now a neutral (I have a slight uneasiness which stops me from becoming a support, but I don't think I can specify it, so will withdraw my objection and let others decide if it is FA standard or not). jguk 00:03, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)Object As Eudyptes says, the lead section is not clear: I think it can only be understood by someone having some familiarity with the history or current political situation of Taiwan. The last clause of the lead section is particularly vague: don't tell me to remember something I don't (necessarily) know. In fact, looking at the article as a whole, it assumes knowledge of Taiwan/ROC/Kuomintang/History of China throughout. It also uses jargon without explanation: eg under 'History', the jargon word 'canton' is used without explanation. The article should be able to stand alone (albeit with cross-references). Some of the longer sentences could also do with shortening. The first sentence of the second paragraph under 'History' is particularly convoluted. Finally, the last sentence of the article seems to have been added as an afterthought: it is not integrated into the text.jguk
  • I really don't see how any of this can be made much clearer without reproducing the whole mess already present in the linked articles. We've linked both political status of Taiwan and Flag terminology (for canton) in the article. Explaining the whole damned and complex situation would take up the whole article and cannot be done. This is the beauty of wikipedia. Confused readers should be sent to the links so I don't see your point. I suppose a few minor clarifications can be made, though. I expect "canton" to be in the vocabulary of an educated reader. If we used "upper corner of the flag", it would look dumbed down, in my opinion and more fit for the Simple English wikipedia. Do you mean the last sentence or the last clause being vague? I've dealt with the 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph in history and expanded on the last sentence. --Jiang 08:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I've rewrote the lead and put parenthesis after canton. Any other jargon? --Jiang 08:49, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Yes, I'm afraid. I don't think the article makes sense without a brief description of ROC being (or not quite being) Taiwan as part of the lead section. Kuomintang? Pan-blue and pan-green? Three bits of unintelligible jargon in the lead section? (I shouldn't have to two different article to understand one sentence in the lead section.) Indeed, the whole lead section implies a knowledge of the Taiwan/PRC situation that is beyond me (and I thought I was reasonably knowledgeable about international politics). The last bit of the lead section (beginning with "if one remembers") even makes clear that you have to have background knowledge in order to be able to understand the article! I'm sorry, but this is NOT a standalone article. It does not yet explain its jargon, and I still strongly oppose it becoming a featured article in its current form. I hope, however, that it can be re-edited succinctly so that I may change my vote at a later date. jguk 22:21, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I made a couple minor changes. I understand how "pan-blue" and "pan-green" can be unfamiliar and have removed it from the lead, but the fact that the Kuomintang was/is some political organization should be basic knowledge, just like I shouldn't expect you to be confused if I mention the Communist Party of China or the British Liberal Party. It was a major player in world history and is given sufficient coverage even in the very poor American high school curriculum (10th and 11th Grades). Will calling it "Nationalist Party of China" be more self-explanitory? History books usually use "Kuomintang." The "remembering" part (I've changed it) isn't the best phrasing but refers to the text earlier in the lead which descibes the flag as being used in mainland China and the mention of immediatly after- "a Republic that only acquired Taiwan in 1945 and moved its government there in 1949" -is meant to explain the "ROC being (or not quite being) Taiwan". I urge you to rewrite it so you (and people with similar background) can understand it because I find it difficult to tell how obvious this has to be to make it understandable. From the lead we can deduce 1) the flag is used in Taiwan and represents the ROC 2) the PRC regards the ROC as a defunct entity and thus opposes any symbols of a defunct entity and 3) there are pro-unification and pro-independence groups in Taiwan who dont agree on the issue because the flag was not designed in Taiwan and first flew there only in 1945. This is the conflict in a nutshell...what knowledge needs to be implied? Please provide quotations to make clarifying easier. --Jiang 00:06, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I've edited to clarify that the KMT are the Nationalist Party of China. The lead looks pretty clear to me now. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:39, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support - I know very little about Taiwan and China (err... they don't like each other) - but the lead section was informative enough for me. Pan blue and pan green being the only confusing terms, but explained by wikilinks--ZayZayEM 14:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support (I worked considerably on the article). I've made an attempt to address the objections. Anything left? --Jiang 16:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Good work :) Zerbey 18:18, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support now, but two remarks: 1) I would still like to see an offline reference (or when not used, see also). 2) What are the exact colours used (many countries have this specified in a law)? Or are the colours just "red and blue"? Jeronimo 18:28, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • the flag law itself doesn't really go into much detail beyond red and blue. --Jiang
• Support. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 20:40, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
• Support - Xed 09:45, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Turquoise

I walked upon this little gem - absolutely excellent in content and style. I have since discovered it is very largely the effort of User:Hadal as part of Wikipedia:Danny's contest. -- [[User:OldakQuill|Oldak Quill] 01:56, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks guys! I hope to someday develop all of our gem articles to such a state. We'll see if I have enough self-discipline to make that happen. ;) -- Hadal 06:00, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support: Very complete study. Giano 16:46, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Can't think of anything wrong with this article. Jeronimo 20:07, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Minor object: Image:Bisbee2.jpg doesn't have source and copyright information. — David Remahl 08:35, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've replaced it with Image:Chacoan turquoise with argillite.jpg; another NPS shot, but it's larger and shows the typical colour range of American material fairly well. -- Hadal 06:00, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Fantastic. Support. Ambi 08:53, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support: Exhuastive and informative. Exactly what one needs in an FA. Geogre 16:37, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• support--Alexandre Van de Sande 17:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. A top-notch article (as far as I can tell, not being a minerologist!). The "Formation" section is just one paragraph -- perhaps it could be merged into another section? And I agree that it would be good to have some copyright info for Image:Bisbee2.jpg. — Matt 19:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bisbee2.jpg has been replaced (I don't think the uploader is active any longer), and I've expanded "Formation"; is it still too slim to be a section of its own? -- Hadal 06:00, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks; it's a good length now. — Matt 06:45, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Excellent. Zerbey 23:29, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Great article. I'll probably fiddle with the Formation section some more - expand a bit, right now I'm still thinking about that hypogene data, hmm... I did some turquoise mining in Arizona back 25+ years ago. {B-)} -Vsmith 05:05, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Max Weber

Partial self-nom. I have worked on Weber's article since I arrived on Wiki this April, incorporated advice from 2 peer review rounds and I think that it is ready for a nomination. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:39, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Two of the three suggestions I made on peer review have not been resolved: multiple one and two sentence paragraphs throughout, and the use of the term economy is confusing. It is used and linked to (through the word economist) in the intro and linked to later. This page is a disambiguation. What sense of the word is being used here? There is no field that is currently referred to only as economy. At least not in any usage I am aware of. - Taxman 19:52, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

• Fixed economy (to economics). As far as remaining 1/2 sentence paragrahs, I did what I could, feel free to work on the few that are left, but personally I really don't find anything bad with them. Note that recent FA Linus Pauling has several of such short paragraphs as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:50, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Besides the fact that it violates basic guidelines of good prose style in an obvious way, it also often highlights ideas that need expanding in order to be useful. For ex: "Weber analysed the interaction between the Bedouins, the cities, the herdsmen and the peasants. The conflicts between them and the rise and fall of United Monarchy." Is not a complete idea. What did he find?, etc. I fixed as many as I could, but the discussion of the stratification issue in the economics section is not well structured as a whole. I think it would be better served by a well written paragraph, than two sentences split by a list. The rest of the one or two sentence paragraphs just need expanding. - Taxman 23:38, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

• A very promising article on an extremely important subject. The author has done great work, but I can't support yet, as there are big formatting and style issues. I agree with Taxman about expansion, noticing at the same time that the article is at this moment 33 kb, one kb over the recommended article maximum. I have copyedited and formatted a ways down, especially the captions, and will be back for more, but am not knowledgeable enough to do any expansion or informed critique. Piotrus, one detail: I assume you know which child is Max in the photo, since you uploaded it yourself, please put that info into the caption. (From the text, I can only tell he's not the youngest.)--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)] 21:05, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC).

The picture is from the gallery (external links in the article, assumed public domain) - since they don't tell which one was Max, I have no idea as well :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:46, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

P.S. Having gone through another few sections to copyedit, I have to say, unfortunately, that the choice of words to wikilink is very lacking in reader usefulness. I hesitate to mess with it myself, but it needs a bigtime overhaul by someone who a) knows about Weber and b) has read some policy pages about the principles of linking.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)] 23:01, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on problems with wikilinks? I would try to fix them if I knew what was wrong, exactly. I did add majority of them myself and I tried to make them relevant to his work in sociology. Tnx for input and help, everybody. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:46, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I've put a wikilink discussion with examples on Talk:Max Weber.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)] 15:29, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Wow. I just read the article for the first time after the rewrite. Support. 172 07:30, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Strongly Support: This is a fascinating and very interesting article about one of Germany's Greats. Probably one of the most comprehensive studies on the internet. Superbly illustrated and a complete credit to Piotrus Giano 10:43, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Much tnx, but I cannot take all the credit. Many other people helped and are helping with this project (after all, this is Wiki) - just look at the history. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:22, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support with contingency: A quick dusting for verb tenses is necessary. There are unsettling shifts from past to present that need to be made consistent. Excellent work, and one of the really difficult jobs (like the Restoration comedy) of doing the impossible: being concise on a subject so monumental and gnarled as to escape most. Writing about figures such as Max Weber in an online encyclopedia is like trying to shove the horizon into a pint glass. Congratulations to the principal editors for saving it from the dual dangers of partisan cheerleaders and academic fussiness. Geogre 17:04, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral. Sorry I can't undertake to remove your contingency, Geogre, the reaction to my initial dusting and comments has been a bit disappointing. I don't want to trip up the article by objections, but can only vote neutral at this point.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen ( talk)] 20:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Could use a bit more work before being on the main page.GeneralPatton 17:04, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

House of Lords

-- Emsworth 00:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Should have a picture of the Chamber. Dbiv 11:15, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Having searched, I was unable to find one that is of the appropriate copyright status; a request has not yielded any results, either. This image may be available (see http://www.parliament.uk/directories/hcio/images.cfm here], but I am not confident, as the page is marked "Parliamentary Copyright." -- Emsworth 20:09, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object; where are the references? Support. Johnleemk | Talk 12:12, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support - I think the "external links" (including the 1911 EB(!)) must be references and have amended accordintly). -- ALoan (Talk)
• Support. Excellent writing. Zerbey 17:55, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support--Enceladus 20:14, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, strongly. Great work. GeneralPatton 20:19, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral for now: The references are pretty light and antique. Additionally, though, there is a severe telescoping of history. For example, we get "The power of the two Houses grew slowly, but was restrained by the numerous civil wars that plagued the country during the mediæval era." And then we hurry on to the 19th century. If one is going to go into extraordinary detail about every politician that attempted to limit Lords's power in the 19th century, then one ought not brush away 400 years of development at a stroke. If nothing else, it seems to me that the planetary motion of power in Lords in the "medieval" period needs to be summarized more than this. (I.e. with Edward II, the barons usurped the throne. With the War of the Roses, it was a split entirely in true civil war. Because Lords represented people who had claims on the throne (even the Lords Spiritual often did), and since they had their own armies and "impregnable" fortresses, their power's wax and wane had a lot to do with the power of the throne itself, and certainly not a teeter-totter with Commons.) I think either some discussion of that fuzzy spot needs to be introduced or some of the detail of 19th century political crises needs more summary treatment. Also, the practice of selling titles is antique. George III gets blamed, but that, I suspect, is due to the historians and not the facts, for contemporaries blamed James I, Charles I, and George II for the same things.
  Geogre 21:16, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I have attempted to address these, especially the reference and history-related objections. -- Emsworth 01:41, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Support with one more cleaning and examination of the references. Great answering of the objection on the history. It is much, much more even-handed now. The references are still a little...odd. Blackstone is, for example, authoritative, but not really an overview source. All the same, with a little cleaning and bolstering of references, just a little, fully support. Geogre 03:13, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Undecided: For the following reasons:
  1. With reference to selling titles: In the early 20th century so many brewers, and similar types, donated to political party funds and consequently obtained titles, the peerage was referred to by the British Royal Family and aristocracy of Europe as the 'beerage'. Should some mention be made of this quite recent history?
  2. I may be wrong here, but does the European Court in Strasbourg not have the final say over the House of Lords in British judicial matters now ? Giano 21:37, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The tern "beerage," I think, may not be of too much historical significance, compared to the other issues discussed in the history section. The Court in Strasbourg, the European Court of Human Rights, only hears complaints from the Council of Europe, not British judicial matters.
    • I think it should be made clear in the article that since Britain's entry to the EEC, the House of Lord is no longer the last form of redress, this is now the European Court. Giano 10:23, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • That's slightly misleading. Individuals can't appeal to the European Court of Justice (though courts may ask it for rulings). And the European Court of Human Rights is not a court of appeal as normally understood. Certainly the relationship between these courts could do with an decent article, but I'm not sure House of Lords is the right place. Gdr 11:55, 2004 Nov 19 (UTC)
        • There is a separate article on judicial functions of the House of Lords. The HL remains the final court of appeal in the UK, but it may be worth mentioning that, as such, the HL is obliged to make references of "preliminary questions" to the European Court of Justice (the court of the European Union, in Luxembourg) in cases where interpretation of EC law is on point (unlike lower courts, which are merely empowered to refer questions): however, the HL makes the final decision once the ECJ has opined. There is no appeal from the HL to the ECJ. As Gdr says, the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg interprets the European Convention on Human Rights and is completely separate (it was created under the aegis of the Council of Europe, not the EC/EEC/EU): you don't appeal from the HL to the ECHR, although you need to have exhausted your UK domestic remedies before your start in Strasbourg. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:14, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Object. The sentence "The House of Lords remained more powerful than the House of Commons, but the Lower House did continue to grow in influence, reaching its zenith during the reigns of the Stuart monarchs in the early seventeenth century" seems quite misleading to me. Surely the Commons reached its zenith in the early interregnum (or perhaps now), not in the reign of the Stuarts? Gdr 11:55, 2004 Nov 19 (UTC)
  • Is this referring to the zenith of the Lords? -- ALoan (Talk) 12:14, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Just for whatever it's worth, while the sentence could get a rewrite, I can see that Commons reached its height at the Long Parliament, but, at that point, there was no Parliament, since Lords was gone. Perhaps "zenith in relation to Lords?" Pretty much the next sentence points out that Lords was dismissed by Commons at the outset of the Interregnum. (I.e. during the Interregnum, people don't talk about Commons anymore. They just say "Parliament." Again, just FWIW.) Geogre 16:49, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Addressed, I hope. -- Emsworth 20:04, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. James F. (talk) 01:07, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Palladian architecture

This article is beautiful to look at and a great pleasure to read, I'd love to see it on the Main page. Not a self-nom, far from it, although I did a little superficial copyediting.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (Talk)] 20:32, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support, though these two images need copyright tags: Woburn Abbey.JPG, Andrea palladio fourth book image.jpg --Enceladus 20:42, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

  fixed Woburn Abbey was photographed & uploaded by a User, now tagged; and second, a scan of 300 year old print is by virtue of age PD Giano 20:50, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Extremely good article. Filiocht 08:24, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Have given it a light copyedit. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:39, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Small objections. All fixed, but I need some time to read the whole article again before offering full support. Some dodgy writing. 1.) A few one sentence paragraphs that are not enough of a developed idea to stand alone. Specifically the ones starting "Colen Campbell..." and "This theme..." (What theme) should be either expanded or merged with other paragraphs. 2.) some grand claims could stand to be more factual, such as the part about Duke of Bedford that it was "inevitable that the Palladian style would be chosen". What made it inevitable and is that really a fact? Obvious or observable things are ok to state, but the rest need to be backed up and stated factually. 3.) Where Palladian architecture was influential would be helpful to state in the intro. Is this a European thing, Asian, Austraian, etc. Some idea of that in the intro really helps the unaware reader.- Taxman 00:13, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

  I have made a few minor text changes which I think are relevant to the above comments by Taxman Giano 09:24, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support, but is it possible to add some external links? [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|^(talk)] 12:05, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

  External links now added Giano 13:44, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support GeneralPatton 17:00, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Support. It's great to see articles on architectural movements get full presentation. No swipe at popular culture intended, but the more often we can balance the young audience with the university audience, the better. Geogre 18:59, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  Thanks for the vote Geogre! I though I had written it in a zany upbeat, loadsa pictures, punky kind of way to appeal to the young; now you say I'm just another a sad old editor. My next effort was going to be Nicholas Hawksmoor's mausoleum, I'll have a rethink on that one. Giano 19:36, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) (on a zimmer frame)

• Support. James F. (talk) 01:05, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

William N. Page

This is a self-nomination. I have been working on research on Col. Page for several years. This remarkable man was cofounder of the Virginian Railway. While Col Page's partner, millionaire industrialist Henry Huttleston Rogers, has received most of the published credit for building the VGN over the years, many of us have come to realize that Col. Page's role was a crucial portion of their partnership. It is a pleasure to record add this man's story (and that of the building of the Virginian Railway) to Wikipedia.

The information used in the article has been reviewed for accuracy and improvements by members of Virginian Railway (VGN) Enthusiasts yahoo group, which has over 400 members and includes authors and historians. I got a lot of help on content, but I am still learning how to write for Wikipedia, and appreciate suggestions and/or edits by others, and will try to respond to objections. Vaoverland

• Object for now, although I would add that the article is generally impressive and I would like to see it featured. Some obvious problems: inadequate lead section; no references section; only the first word and proper nouns in headings should be capitalized. Markalexander100 03:45, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lead section has been enhanced, references section added, and improper capitalizations in headings corrected User:Vaoverland

• Support. This really does look impressive and it's well written. The objections above seem to have been addressed, the references section is truly impressive now! One comment, I'm unfamiliar with the history, but there seems to be a lot of adjectives used in headings and text, are these generally NPOV?
• Support - very impressive - ZayZayEM 08:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Regarding neutral point of view, I may need help or suggestions in that area if y'all think it is biased. I know that Wikipedia articles are used by teachers as a basis for school projects. When composing, I visualize school children of middle school or high school age, and I try to keep it factual and interesting to read. It is an exciting and true story, and I would like the reader to be able to relate to some of the emotions the people involved experienced, if that is appropraite in the encyclopedia setting. However, I may have overloaded it with adjectives in my enthusiasm. I'm open to help or suggestions to make it a better article for Wikipedia. That is more important to me than the need to change anything from the way I have done it. In other words, please HELP if you can make it better, or guide me in doing so. Thanks. user: vaoverland

• Support.Close, but I think it has too many duplicate links, IE Henry H. Rogers is linked 19 times (even after I removed a few while correcting spelling errors[4] [it's not as different as it looks--apparently removing blank lines sometimes confuses Wikipedia's diff feature]), and up to 3 times in a single paragraph. Seems like once per section, at most, would be better. Niteowlneils 22:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC) Niteowlneils 15:25, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since they are not being voted on, this is NOT an "oppose" issue, but ideally some of the articles it links to, and the way they are linked could be tidier. I cleaned up Virginian Railway a bit, but, for example, Chesapeake and Ohio Railway has a 'missing image' message, and many links are to redirect pages (eg City, ST, instead of City, State), and at least some are to disambiguation pages (EG New River). I'll try to work on some of these issues myself, but given my short attention span, I'm not likely to do them all. I've looked at them all and tweaked the ones I had issues with, except I didn't look at any city/county/state page as they are very rarely problematic. I noticed you've worked more on some, as well. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That said, I think Wikipedia is MUCH better served by people like you that contribute a smaller number of very high quality articles, rather than the recent trend towards contributing dozens, or even hundreds, of 6-10 word articles. Niteowlneils 23:36, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have gone back through the article and removed many of the duplicate links, especially those to Henry H. Rogers. I have added a little more information, as my research on Col. Page is ongoing, aided by members of the Virginian Railway Enthusiasts Yahoo group. At the same time, I have been trying to make improvements to some of the linked items, such as Jamestown Exposition, Sewell's Point, Battle of Hampton Roads, and the other railroads. I am not familar with some of the wiki editing tools, so I go through the articles word by word. A downside of that approach is that sometimes you can lose the big picture while working with individual details. Also, I have searched far and wide for a photo of Page, without success to date. Thanks for all the help, suggestions, and encouragement in making this and the other articles more accurate and easier to read and work with. [user:vaoverland].

He seems to have been married[5](didn't look close enuf), and may have written a book, which I'm still trying to track down.(guess not, an unfortunately common name) BTW, you can sign your entries on Talk and 'backend' pages by typing ~~~ and add a time stamp using ~~~~ instead. Niteowlneils 04:10, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also haven't been able to determine any information about William Page's marital status or whether he had any children. I have also found information about an author of the same name, but with different dates of birth/death. Thanks for tweaking the photos; they look much better. I have been working this evening on cleaning up the articles on Hampton Roads and the Battle of Hampton Roads, and eliminating duplicative information. I have also fixed the misisng logo on C&O and added a table to the Virginian Railway article. I am also working on major overhauls of the Virginian Railway and Henry H. Rogers articles. Vaoverland 05:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have revised the article to address some additional questions/concerns shared on the Talk page for the article. I have also gone back through it to add some additional personal information and a physical description of Col. Page, even though I still cannot locate a photo of him. I also have removed some dates about his early work with the C&O, which, although documented from a govt. source, just do not make logical sense to me. I would rather sidestep the issue than present what may turn out to be incorrect information. Vaoverland 11:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This[6] seems to indicate he had a female relative named Mary, but its not clear if it's sister, wife, or daughter. Seems like worth contacting to see if they can clarify, and if any pics/paintings of him are included in the documents. Also, if you search amazon.com for his full name in quotes, you get two books--might be worth trying to find them in a library, and/or contacting the authors to see if they can help with either issue. Great job merging the battle info into the battle article, BTW. Niteowlneils 15:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Great find on the additional description information of the WNP papers at UNC Chapel Hill! I have found other indications that Page had "relatives" in Staunton, VA (Augusta County). And thanks for the comments about the work on the Battle of Hampton Roads, a topic for which web searches turn up far more information! I have noticed a discrepancy about the length of the March 9 battle, 4 hours in one version of events, and over 9 hours in another. The longer period is more logically correct, but like the dates Page started work on the C&O, to be safe I have side-stepped the issue for now. BTW, for the dates I originally used to be correct, he would have been through with UVA and gone to work on the C&O at rather young age of 17 or so. It is possible that the birthdate used in wrong instead, as he was supposedly only 10 years younger than Rogers who born in 1841 (according to H. Reid). I will post this new information about Col. Page to VGN yahoo group and see if that helps anyone there with more info. Vaoverland 16:19, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apparently, the collection of WNP papers donated to Duke University in 1952 found their way to UNC Chapel Hill. The description and even the item number matches, although the reference to the collection at Duke provides a little but more information, including the donor's name. Vaoverland 17:03, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Mark¹ 00:42, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There have been some improvements made during the past week, including more personal information, and I located and added a photo of the ship William N. Page. I have also run an additional spell check using the ieSpell program which was recommended by other Wikipedia users, and it caught several errors that my WP program had missed. Members of the VGN Yahoo group have been trying to help located a photo of Page. Thanks to all for the improvements to article as well as the help on the research to round things out. Vaoverland 01:56, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would highly recommend the ieSpell program. It is especially helpful with my Adult ADD disability (please see my talk page if you want to know more). I have been in email contact with folks from Lynchburg and Rustburg (Campbell County, VA) who had more information about Col. Page's family. The additional information won't fit into the article, which I am trying to edit to reduce the size, but it turns out that I have actually been in the house Page grew up in and know the current family occuppying it. Page's brother is believed to have been a US Ambassador, possibly to France or Italy, and I have names of other relatives as well. This Wikipedia projects has proved rewarding to me in a number of ways I couldn't envision when I started working on it. Some additional information uncovered ion this process will be used in other articles I am also working on. Thanks to all who have contributed to this work-in-progress. Vaoverland 07:27, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A little more. More e-mail from the lady in Rustburg, who inquired while she was at church today. It turns out that the Page in the Rustburg house may have been a different one. We cannot even confirm that Rustburg was the place in Campbell County where this particular Page grew up, so I have edited the article to remove one statement of questionable veracity (to wit: "grew up in Rustburg"). It really isn't important to the story, anyway, BTW, Thomas Nelson Page, a US ambassador to Italy, and most likely a relative at some level, but exact information has not been confirmed. I have tried to edit down some of the article, as it is a bit larger than desired for a WP article. Vaoverland 18:24, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I want to say that I appreciate all the support, criticism, and new information which has resulted from this article being a featured article candidate. I realize that the subject was not a famous person, and that neither he, or the railroads he helped build may be interesting enough to have broad appeal in this setting. Nevertheless, I'm very pleased with the results and the fine-tuning efforts a number of users have put into it. One Wikipedian (?) went down to the local library and actually dug up some new leads, which in turn, have opened other doors in my Yahoo rail group with over 400 members (including some published authors) to even more sources of information. The folks in my group are just now becoming aware of the wonders of Wikipedia. Bottom line: for the article and me as its' primary contributor, the fac process has been great, win or not! Thanks, folks. Vaoverland 14:37, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Support. A very fine article on something I knew absolutely nothing about. Filiocht 14:54, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Through the Yahoo group, we have located a photo of Page, but it looks unlikely that we will be able to get the needed permission to use it. We are still working on it, though. Vaoverland 18:03, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Economy of the Republic of Ireland

Self-nomination. I've expanded this article significantly over the last few weeks. It covers all sectors of the Irish economy, taxation, wealth distribution, the relevent statistics, econo