The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:35, 30 May 2008 [1].

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Hubert Walter

Self-nom I'm nominating this article for featured article because it's expanded greatly from where it was when I first started editing, I've worked hard to ensure that only relible scholarly sources are used, and while it still lacks a picture of the man himself or his tomb, it is actually illustrated. All aspects of his life are covered, from his start under Henry II to his coronation of King John. This is a very significant individual in English history, who unfortunately doesn't figure largely in most folks' memory. He's been really fun to write about, though. It's very kindly been copy-edited by Karanacs and Malleus, to remove my weasely academic writing! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Daft comment. Who's going to do the source checking? ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Me? (ducks) No clue. Not my department. Boy was it nice to put up something I didn't have to source check too.... Ealdgyth - Talk 00:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• I'm not sure about the MOS on this, but isn't generally "circa" abbreviated to "c." and then linked to circa?

I have no clue. I don't generally stay up on MOS issues like that. I honestly figured that circa would work better because it's not an abbreviation. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• Both American and British spelling are present in the article.

That's because the main author is a Yank. It should be British spelling, and Malleus attempted to find most of them, but a pointer to the glaring ones would be greatly appreciated by this Yank. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• Aren't centuries supposed to be linked when they're relevant? They seem to be relevant here.

Can do. I generally try to avoid overlinking. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• "Walter served King Henry II of England in many different ways, not only in financial administration." - should that be a semicolon? As usual, I'm not sure, and too cowardly to be bold.

Someone else know? I barely squeaked through grammar in school, the various uses of the various parts fail me at times. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• "Walter accompanied King Richard on the Third Crusade and was one of the principal persons involved in raising Richard's ransom after the king had been captured in Germany while returning home." - "had been" sounds awkward. Maybe "was" instead?

Will do. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• "He also served as Richard's justiciar until 1198, in which role he was responsible for raising the money Richard needed to prosecute his wars in France." - "in which role" -> "a role in which"?

works. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, changed "in which role" to "where" which is more concise. That work? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I only checked the lead - that especially should be spotless of awkward/incorrect grammar since most readers read only the lead. If I'm brave enough to tackle the entire text (read: have an inordinate amount of spare time), I might do that. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 00:58, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources check (teeheehee)

Everything looks good, actually. According to [2], [3] needs registration. That's allowed, though, so all seems good. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 10:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does, but it's also a printed work, so the link is a courtesy link. I'm told that most folks in the UK get free access through their library. I guess I should have put registration required in it too, but I'm not sure the cite encyclopedia has that field. (ponders) Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct. I'm in the UK and have a library card. I entered the barcode number, and, voila, it works. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 21:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I put something at the end of the ref (in the edition field) saying that registration/fee would be required. Hopefully that works fine with the MOS mavens! Ealdgyth - Talk 22:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. I've been bold and addressed my own issues, [4]. Please check that I haven't done anything stupid. Could you make clearer what aspect of Salisbury was deemed to be a reward, (Salisbury was a town), and I didn't like the expression while on crusade, but couldn't think of a better one. An engaging, comprehensive and well-written article, thanks. GrahamColm^Talk 11:28, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I will gladly expand the Salisbury bit, (it's the diocese in this instance, it's medievalist jargon to just refer to the diocese by shorthand like that. We know by context that a bishopric is meant since he's a cleric.) I'm not too fond of "while on Crusade" either, but "while over in the Holy Land killing infidels" which is how they would have described their activiy isn't exactly a NPOV statement (and rightly so, I might add). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Support - Great prose, referenced throughout and good layout/usage of suitable photos. Very nice work, Ealdgyth. Keep it up. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 19:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. I conducted a pre-FAC review at Eagldyth's invitation, and all issues I found have been addressed. The article seems extremely comprehensive considering the scarcity of records of the time period. Karanacs (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. As with Karanacs, Ealdgyth invited me to carry out a pre-FAC review. All the issues I raised have been addressed to my satisfaction. I believe that this comprehensive article meets the FA criteria. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Support I couldn't resist a few tweaks, please check that you're happy. I'm impressed that Firefox's in-line spell check picked up archepiscopal as a typo! jimfbleak (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Support I have added links etc. Personally I would prefer the lead rearranged into a overall summary para, then the more detailed ones. You read a long way before finding out he was Lord Chancellor. Johnbod (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, better now (see below). Johnbod (talk) 22:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Support Comments A very interesting article! It was a pleasure to read. I have just a few questions; I was hoping that some further explanations could be added into the article for readers like myself who are largely ignorant of this period in history. Also, a few sections of the article could benefit from some rewriting to make them flow a bit better.

• Hubert Walter (c. 1160–13 July 1205) was chief justiciar of England and archbishop of Canterbury in the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries. - Should the opening sentence better express his notability? I don't know much about this period in history and I read this sentence as "he was a government functionary". (Note: That I'm American might have something to do with this!)

Hm. I could say "Hubert Walter (c. 1160-13 July 1205) in the late twelfth and early thirteenth century was chief justiciar, one of the principal royal advisors, and archbishop of Canterbury, the highest ecclesiastical office in England." but I'm worried it's getting too long and drawn out that way. I can see not understanding the chief justiciar, but do I need to explain Archbishop? Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

See my comment above. You certainly need to mention he was Lord Chandellor in the first ?500 words. Much of the stuff in the last para of the lead would be better in the first. Johnbod (talk) 10:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

What about something like "Hubert Walter (c. 1160-13 July 1205) was an influential royal adviser in the late twelfth and early thirteenth centuries in the positions of chief justiciar of England, archbishop of Canterbury, and Lord Chancellor". - or something like that? Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to work on revising this a bit per your and Johnbod's comments. Just need to cool off after a very hot morning working with horses! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Reworked it a bit, let me know what you think? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

So much better! Thanks for taking the time! Awadewit (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• Walter served King Henry II of England in many different ways, not just in financial administration. - Could we briefly suggest what these ways were?

Done. Inserted "... including diplomatic and judicial efforts." Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Walter's mother died at West Dereham in Norfolk, probably the location of Walter's birth, some time between 1150 and 1160. - This makes it seem like her death is related to his birth in some way. Is that intended?

It's more that her death place shows the likely spot where he was born. Reworded to "Walter's mother died at West Dereham in Norfolk, some time between 1150 and 1160, and this gives a possible place of Walter's birth." which hopefully expresses this better. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry - I still don't see why where his mother died should suggest where he was born. Did she die around the time he was born? Did she die during childbirth? I feel like some information is missing here. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The source for that information seems to think it's connected, but I will just take it out. Reworded to "Walter's family was from West Dereham in Norfolk, which is probably where Walter was born." Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the point is that 12th century women didn't go hopping around as much as their modern equivalents. If she died there, she was highly likely to have lived there for a long time. Johnbod (talk) 19:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• He was appointed Dean of York by order of King Henry II about July 1186.[1] The archbishopric had been vacant since 1181 and would remain so until 1189, so it was Walter's job as dean to administer the archbishopric - The archbishopric of York?

Yes. I suspect this was a casulaty of either my understanding it to be implicit, or of a copyedit pass. Clarified now. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Walter also was an unsuccessful candidate to become Archbishop of York in September 1186 - Do we know why?

We know that the king rejected all five names that were presented to him, but not why the king did so. I can go into detail about that, if you really want, but I purposefully left that amount of detail out. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a footnote? Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Added information in a footnote. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• In 1187 Walter, along with Glanvill and King Henry II, attempted to mediate a dispute between the Archbishop of Canterbury, Baldwin of Exeter, and the monks of the cathedral chapter. - a dispute about what?

Again, I can attempt to explain, but at this point, it's probably shorter to leave it out. It was a dispute between the monks of the cathedral chapter and Baldwin over Baldwin's desire to found a non-monastic church staffed by canons which would be in Canterbury itself, and in honor of Saint Thomas Becket. The monks of the cathedral chapter were scared that this was the first step of an attempt to either remove the relics of Thomas from the cathedral to the new foundation, thus depriving the monks of a very large source of income, or an attempt to remove the monks from the cathedral chapter and replace them with canons. Some (about half, including Canterbury) English cathedrals up until the Reformation were uniquely served by monks, and not the canons that were usual on the continent. English monastic cathedral chapters were always scared that they would be replaced by canons and this could lead to some rather heated disputes between the cathedral chapter and its nominal head, the bishop/archbishop. Still want me to include this information? Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that explaining the dispute is worthwhile, especially since it comes up again in the article. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Urf. Okies. Will try to summarize this briefly. Some may come in footnotes. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, expanded it a bit, let me know what you think. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Excellent summary! Awadewit (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• In the first paragraph of "Justiciar", is there a way to briefly describe the wars? What were they about?

Added "... which began with Philip's attempts to acquire Richard's possessions on the continent." Ealdgyth - Talk 03:55, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• When John showed no signs of submitting, Walter called an ecclesiastical council at Westminster for the purposes of excommunicating John unless he submitted - What happened with this? Did John submit? I felt like I was left hanging.

Clarified, I hope. DIdn't want to get too far off topic. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• In foreign affairs, Walter negotiated peace with Scotland in 1195 and with the Welsh in 1197. In 1196, Walter quickly suppressed a popular uprising in London led by William Fitz Osbern. - Can this paragraph be expanded? A bit of context added, perhaps? Why did peace need to be negotiated with Scotland and Wales, for example? Why was there a popular uprising? Etc.

Expanded a bit. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This is so helpful! Thanks `Awadewit (talk)

• According to the Life of William Marshal, when word reached William Marshal, one of the richest and most influential barons, that Richard was dead, he consulted with Walter and discussed whom to support as the next king. - Could we add a date for the Life?

added in a date, it was commissioned by the eldest son of WM soon after WMs death, so it's very close in time frame. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• I take it that the diplomatic missions to France in 1201 and 1204 were unsuccessful? Perhaps this could be made a bit more explicit?

Made it explicit. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• The last paragraph of the "Death and legacy" section sort of trails off. I wasn't really sure what the relevance of the authorship debate was.

Attempted to explain that. Sorry, I forget that most folks don't know what all these obscure tracts are. (I really need to write a wiki article on that tract.. but...) Ealdgyth - Talk 04:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This is better. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• The "Early life" section is a bit choppy. It just seems like a list of facts that are only tangentially related. Could some flow be added to this paragraph? In particular, could the information about the aunt and uncle be narrated a bit more clearly?

I've moved the information on the aunt and uncle to after the fact that Glanvill helped out Theobald and Hubert's career. Hopefully that'll make things flow better. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The first paragraph is still a bit choppy, but there is so little information, it is hard to make it flow together, isn't it? This version is better. Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I moved the bit about the paternal lands up a bit in the paragraph, maybe that'll help. Let me know? There really isn't a lot of information available about him, unless we want to get into OR. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• The paragraphs in both the "Early assignments" and "Under John" sections are a bit disconnected from each other. Is there any way to provide smooth transitions between the paragraphs within these sections?

Hopefully, done, without ticking off my copyeditors. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - this makes for easier reading! Awadewit (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes Walter is referred to as "Hubert". Is there a reason for this?

Because medievalists usually refer to folks by either name, for a number of reasons. I'll go back an prune them back to Walters. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I got them all now. (Search functions are so nice.) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope these suggestions are helpful. Awadewit (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Awadewit, I'm on the road, so I'll try to hopefully take care of most of these tomorrow night, when (cross your fingers) I'll set up at the client's place. I'll have to take some time on those, since some of the questions need me to dig into the books that are packed into the car. Just wanted you to know I saw it and they look dealable, just need to not be on the road. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Take your time. I'm not one of those people who expect responses within the hour. :) Awadewit (talk) 16:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Took care of the easy ones, the other three will take a bit more digging into the book boxes, so it'll be tomorrow Ealdgyth - Talk 04:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I've got everything now. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Awadewit (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Support: Just a few comments.

• What does "he disciplined the monks between the death of Henry de Sully and the election of John of Coutances" mean? And what were the "ecclesiastical abuses"?

Clarified a bit. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• Is there supposed to be a space in "FitzOsbern"?

Depends on who is writing the word. I left the space in because the article its linked to has a space. You'll see 'Fitz Osbern" 'fitzOsbern" "fitz-Osbern" "Fitz-Osbern" "FitzOsbern" and "Fitzosbern" scholars haven't settled on a standard. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• Is there a better way to say, "Walter was the butt of jokes..."?

I wish. I'll try to think of one. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

• In the References section, you may want to add OCLC numbers for books printed before ISBN became a standard. To facilitate this, there is an oclc parameter in the {{cite book}} template which will then provide weblinks to the World Cat entry.

I'll try to get to this later, make no promises, it's a busy day here at the ranch. Vets, breeding and farriers! Ealdgyth - Talk 14:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Another bishop down, how many more to go? :) --RelHistBuff (talk) 11:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

A lot. Lots and lots. (grins). I think next up is a horse breed though...Ealdgyth - Talk 14:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:35, 30 May 2008 [5].

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New York State Route 175

I'm nominating this article for featured article because I feel, although its short, it is a very comprehensive, well-written article. After passing GA, I gave it a complete rewrite, it went through a small A-class review which passed. And now, to complete my FT plans, I have brought it to FAC for hopes that it'll pass. All comments will be useful. ^Mitch32^contribs 00:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment

New_York_State_Route_175#History, By 1947, the New Seneca Turnpike rsection of the route was turned over to Onondaga County and became CR 41. - is rsection a typo? Maxim_(talk) 01:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

For reference; it's been fixed. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 09:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• I have a new pet peeve, abbreviations in references. Could we possibly spell them out, such as NYDOT?
• Current ref 4 "Kenneth Jennighs Wooster (2002) says it was published in 2002, but in reality it's a copy of an out of print book published in 1896. You really should give the older publication data, not the person who put it up on his page. Here's the google books entry.

Otherwise, sources look good. Links all checked out with the link checking tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Everything you listed is done. Note the ISBN in the cite book template is being impossible, it'l be fixed in a sec.^Mitch32^contribs 09:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Either need a page number on that 1896 book or just a link saying "Available online (here)". (I don't have a problem with the transcription being hosted online, it just needs a bit more for verifiablity). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Did the latter, thanks.^Mitch32^contribs 18:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• "U.S. Route 20 (US 20)" - this may be common practice, but it seems weird to almost repeat the route's name, but in brackets. I've no idea what it's indicating. Which is a problem.
• Why is Lee Mulroy Road in italics?
• It's referred to as both "the highway" and "the route"...be consistent?
• "The highway then enters a large forested area, at times surrounded by trees. The highway" - repetition (the highway) makes for poor reading.
• Ref 14; AAA is a dablink.
• The ref 4 issue noted above hasn't been resolved.

dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 09:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Everything you listed is done.^Mitch32^contribs 09:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support - I think the article looks great with the changes you made --ZeWrestler ^Talk 01:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support Concise prose, fully referenced and suitable images. Well done. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 15:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support, and comment I like the article. Something to add: Gen. Orrin Hutchinson House is a building on the route, which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Not sure where to add mention of this to article, so leave to the nominator to add if you like. doncram (talk) 03:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• I'll insert it in the route description sometime later. Thank you for pointing it out. --Polaron | Talk 11:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support Funny, I drive the road often, and we always called it Lee Mulroy Highway, as opposed to road. But, road is the correct title, I've found. I learned something! I thinks it is a nice article. Lvklock (talk) 04:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support with a comment. By 1938, a new designation was assigned over Route 175 from Marcellus to Onondaga, [9] NY 20N, which was a 31 miles (50 km) suffixed spur of U.S. Route 20. is slightly awkward, and could be worded better. Otherwise the prose is good. Well-referenced, seems factually accurite. Another image wouldn't hurt, but the one will do. Good work overall! Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 01:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:35, 30 May 2008 [6].

---

Macintosh Classic

Self-nominator. I re-wrote most of this recently, and initiated a successful peer review and a couple copy-edits. Fully referenced, good prose. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 21:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support - The article is really good, and the links checked out fine. Limetolime ^{talk to me • look what I did!} 19:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support, the prose looks great and I have not found any additional issues. --Laser brain (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Comment, I don't have much to add because I made my comments at the article peer review. I think the article could stand one more run-through by a different copyeditor to spit shine it a bit. --Laser brain (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Another copy-editor made some edits, but I think most of them were not beneficial. Are there any particular sentences which stick out? If not, I think this is not actionable. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 09:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
    • The prose is already very good, but I have consulted AnnaFrance to further 'polish' the prose/quality of writing throughout. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 20:07, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: I like. Well done, and leaning to support. One question though: are any sales figures available for the Macintosh classic? How well did it perform compared to it's predecessor and successor units? Would be nice to know, if the info is available. Resolute 20:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• This was asked at the peer review, and the answer is unfortunately no. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 20:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Well, Can't ask for what isn't available then. I like that all major points are discussed in such a compact article. Resolute 21:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - To address Laserbrain's concerns, the article has now been copyedited by two editors, User:AnnaFrance and User:Finetooth in addition to original copyedits by User:Leoniana. — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 10:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support Comment - I've done a little copy editing, [7]and [8] please check that I haven't done anything stupid. GrahamColm^Talk 11:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC) and GrahamColm^Talk 17:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:35, 30 May 2008 [9].

---

Natalee Holloway

previous FAC

Self-nominator along with Wehwalt (talk · contribs) and Kww (talk · contribs). We've worked extensively on this article to meet the GA criteria and have put in a great deal of effort since it's GA promotion to create a featured article; we believe it meets the criteria and look forward to the additional commentary. - auburnpilot talk 00:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

• CommentThe article has come a long way since I last saw it. However, the main image is a fair use image. I think this may be O.K. since whe is not living, but can someone who knows fair usage check on this.
• I believe a five paragraph WP:LEAD ia against policy.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 00:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Tony, thanks for the quick comments. As for the lead, I believe we could combine the 5th paragraph with the third, to make it meet the 4 paragraph limit from WP:LEAD. This would leave the criticism/boycott paragraph as the final comment in the lead, and may better match up with the order of the article, without neglecting to summarize some of the key points. Thoughts? - auburnpilot talk 00:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no policies on leads; only guidelines. User:Elcobbola can be consulted on the image issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Sandy. While I'm not a fair use expert, I do believe such a use would be permitted. I've been claiming fair use for Image:NancyLynn.jpg for quite some time, under similar circumstances, and I can't imagine a free alternative becoming available. - auburnpilot talk 01:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The image provides a valid fair use rationale. Her claim to notability comes from her disappearance and possible death. Given this, it's safe to say that there are probably no freely licensed pictures of the subject available. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 06:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we could combine the fifth and third paragraphs, and will do so if it is needed for FA, but given that it is a guideline, and given that it reads much stronger and more logically if we use the five relatively short paragraphs as at present, I would suggest leaving the lede as it stands. As for the photo issue, no more likely to have a free use available than for any other random American kid at the age of 18.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

There are differences between suggestions, guidelines and policies. I recently started venturing into doing more notable biographies. In recent attempts to get Jack Kemp to FA, Jesse Jackson, Jr. to GA and preparing to attack Jon Corzine, I have begun to look closely at some of the leading political biographies that examine some of the most notable subjects on the project. Currently Franklin D. Roosevelt has a five paragraph lead and if it came to WP:FAR my voice would be to take it to four. I have seen several other incredibly notable biographies that have been trimmed to four. I think you should reevaluate this individual's bio and assess whether the bio is so complex and notable that it is best introduced over five paragraphs. It may seem well-written, but I just think that even the most notable biographies on the project should be introduced with four para leads. I am but one voice, but I think anyone who is not a top priority bio should reconsider the need for five paragraphs.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I've merged the two paragraphs per discussion.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment I quickly skimmed through this article, and I have to say that this is fantastic. I never thought that it would be possible to bring Natalee Holloway up to FA, though I'm not really familiar with the subject. Anyways, I love the style of writing, and all the ref templates seem great. I don't really have much negative things to say except that it would be best to get a fair-use image, though I guess it is fine the way it is. Most people recognize her by that image anyways. And another thing: current ref 73 and possibly others need language tags on the ref. (French={{fr}}, Chinese={{zh icon}}, but I'm not entirely sure what Dutch is.)--haha169 (talk) 02:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Haha169. I've added the "|language=Dutch" parameter to the ref, which I believe accomplishes what you're talking about, and will check other references for the same. - auburnpilot talk 02:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. There were four others, and they've been tagged as well. - auburnpilot talk 02:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• Comment "with locals Joran van der Sloot" What does "locals" mean? Aruban citizens? Dutch nationals living in Aruba? "Holloway remains officially missing to this day, although according to Aruban authorities she is most likely dead." "Officially" means what? "to this day" is redundant. BuddingJournalist 15:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed "on this day" as redundant. I believe Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes are described as locals, in order to clarify that they are not tourists, but three men living in Aruba. As for "officially missing" I believe this had to do with the legal standing that she has not been declared dead, and is still listed as missing. - auburnpilot talk 15:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"to clarify that they are not tourists, but three men living in Aruba." Well yes, I understood that, but that wasn't what I was asking. It's unclear what is meant by "locals": Aruban citizens? Dutch nationals living in Aruba? This should be made clear to readers here. "Officially" according to whom? By the way, the "v" in Van der Sloot is not capitalized on first mention. Is there a reason for this? BuddingJournalist 16:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The v should not be capitalized unless simply referring to him by his last name. I don't know much about it, but that's just the proper capitalization of the name (Joran van der Sloot). As for locals, I'll let somebody else address that, as I don't see what's so confusing about the word "local". In my opinion, it wasn't meant to have any deeper meaning. I've removed "officially" until I can find a source. - auburnpilot talk 16:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"Locals" is not so much confusing, as just unclear. The reader understands that the three live there from "locals", but they don't get an explicit mention of their nationality; locals may mean Aruban citizens. When I read the lead, their Dutch names and the mentioning of Dutch authorities/military becoming involved led me to suspect that they were perhaps Dutch citizens living in Aruba. If this is the case, it should be made explicit, instead of leaving the reader hanging with "locals". BuddingJournalist 16:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, sorry for completely misunderstanding what you were asking. Yes, Joran is a Dutch citizen and was living in Aruba, but the Kalpoe brothers are citizens of Suriname, who were simply living and working in Aruba. - auburnpilot talk 16:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

"locals" was meant to sum up the varying status of Joran (a Dutch national entitled to live in Aruba because his parents are employed there) and the Kalpoes (who, judging by the articles after they were first released, are Surinamese nationals entitled to live in Aruba but not entitled to live elsewhere in the Kingdom of the Netherlands). We could change that to "local residents", if it is helpful.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify the residency and citizenship concerns, and cast my vote for "locals". Aruba, being a country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands, issues a Dutch passport, just like the Netherlands and the Netherlands Antilles. Anyone that holds that passport is entitled to live anywhere in the kingdom. Van der Sloot is entitled to live in Aruba by virtue of holding that passport. Suriname is a former member of the Kingdom, and became independent about 30 years ago. However, based on the historic ties, there are a lot of Surinamese residents of Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles. The Kalpoes are permanent residents of Aruba, live as Arubans, work as Arubans, and are subject to Aruban law. The specific nationalities aren't particularly important to the story ... if any one of them had been Aruban or Antillean, I don't think it would have made any significant difference. The reason for the heavy Dutch involvement is the simple fact that they are the wealthiest member of the Kingdom, and the only one with a military.Kww (talk) 20:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

And to clarify further, the nationality and very basic biographical information on Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers is included in the first body paragraph of the article; "Disappearance". I believe going into further detail within the introduction would be excessive. - auburnpilot talk 14:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: criterion three concerns: Comment:
  • Regarding Image:Natalee Holloway yearbook photo.jpg: the WP:NFCC#1 verbiage of "could be created" (analogous to "could be obtained") may be problematic; I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that the family would be happy to release an image, if only asked. Reasonable people could indeed argue the fair use claim fails. That being said, however, I haven't seen precedent to establish how strictly NFCC#1 is interpreted in these instances, so this is merely food for thought.
  • Image:Nhposteraruba.jpg, however, is problematic. In its component parts, it is a picture of Natalee (NFCC#3A requires minimal use - the article already has a superior image of her), a picture of her mother (not necessary - NFCC#3A - or a significant contribution to our understanding - NFCC#8) and text (which could be included in the article as prose - NFCC#1). I don't see value to the image as a whole, either. What does it tell us about Natalee, search efforts or her disappearance that prose alone could not?
  • Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg: Freedom of Panorama applies only to buildings in the United States. If the image of Natalee is copyrighted (as is asserted by Image:Natalee Holloway yearbook photo.jpg, the same image), this is a derivative work.
  • Image:Lastnatalee.jpg is purely decorative (fails NFCC#3A and NFCC#8). The boilerplate rationale indicates that either no or inadequate thought was put into this image's inclusion or that its function is redundant.
  • Image:Joranbook.jpg and Image:Nataleebook.jpg: Why are these images necessary (NFCC#3A)? What significant understanding do they impart (NFCC#8)? What does seeing the book covers tell us about Natalee or the literature regarding her circumstance? ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 19:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Hm. Images and copyright claims aren't my specialty, so I will keep the discussion to the need for the images. The poster image gives us info on the early reward, a photo of Beth (saves us getting a screencap from one of her TV appearances), and, since it apparently is based on an assumption that Natalee may have run away (something which is alluded to in the Amigoe section), speaks to the uncertainty of the early search. Joran's book cover of course not only lets us see Joran's book but also Joran himself. The Natalee at CnC shot I think illustrates the party atmosphere just before her disappearance (which could explain why she got into a car with three men of slight acquaintance), and is not merely decorative but nicely sets off the "Natalee's Behavior" subsection. Does the article otherwise qualify in your view, elcobbola?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I quite disagree that the main image of Holloway fails WP:NFCC. It is highly unreasonable to expect a free image of a missing/deceased person to be obtained, and I personally would never consider contacting the Holloway family in that regard. I also very much disagree with respect to Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg being a derivative work. If that were true, images such as Image:Missing persons 2 - by Keith Tyler.jpg and Image:Missing persons - by Keith Tyler.jpg would not be free, but very much are. Image:Lastnatalee.jpg is not purely decorative, and meets all aspects of NFCC:
        • No free equivalent: One time occurrence, as the last known image of a missing person, cannot be reproduced.
        • Respect for commercial opportunities: image is low quality, limiting any potential for commercial reproduction, but I doubt any commercial value exists.
        • Previous publication: Image was shown on 48 Hours, a national news program
        • Content: Last known image of a missing person, encyclopedic.
        • Media-specific policy: meets all requirements.
        • Significance:Last known image of a missing person, illustrates concerns over subject's behavior, shows location where she was last seen
        • Restrictions on location: used in only one article
        • Image description page: source, status, tag, and rationale present.
      • The two book images are used in sections where the books are discussed, and both books are used as references within the article. elcobbola, I would appreciate if you would work with us, rather than outright opposing. We are open to making necessary changes. - auburnpilot talk 20:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
        • I side with elcobbola on the book covers: we could make arguments to have them (and in fact, you have), but they are not strong arguments. The real question is Is there anything about the book that the reader would not understand properly without the image?, and the answer to that question is No. We added them because people at the GA review insisted that the article didn't have enough pictures, and I think those two got added on primarily for decorative reasons.Kww (talk) 20:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Of the images mentioned, the book covers are my least concern. I honestly would not object to them being removed. - auburnpilot talk 20:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment on images

• The main image - this issue has arisen before over non-free images of recently deceased people. Technically this image fails NFCC#1 - but in reality, common-sense (and IAR) would suggest that asking the family for a free image isn't in our best interests.
• Image:Nhposteraruba.jpg - agree with Elcobbola above.
• Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg - USCOC 14 says "a derivative work must be different enough from the original to be regarded as a new work or must contain a substantial amount of new material" - I don't think the Holloway photo can be said to constitute the main part of the image - the person signing is the central feature - so I don't think this is derivative.
• Image:Lastnatalee.jpg - debatable - I would say it fails WP:NFCC#1, because it doesn't show anything that couldn't be covered in prose.
• The two book covers are clearly decorative and don't add anything to the reader's understanding - nothing on the covers is discussed in the text, so these two quite clearly fail WP:NFCC#8.
• As a side-issue, Image:F-16am.falcon.j061.rnaf.jpg is a free image, but is completely irrelevant to the subject and should be removed.

Black Kite 21:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the images of the book covers, reward poster, and F-16. - auburnpilot talk 21:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I reluctantly concur. I'd have liked to be able to keep them, but it is not to be. I should note that the lastnatalee image does speak to what was going on with the kids in Aruba, as summarized by Dompig, and I don't think that we could cover it in prose.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

A sincere question as I honestly don't know. Are we sure of the copyright status of images gathered and released by the Department of Justice as part of these investigations? Information generated by the US Federal Government is public domain. In particular it's not clear to me that copyright for Image:Lastnatalee.jpg, having been discovered and disseminated by the FBI from an unknown person's camera, could now be asserted to actually have been generated by the owner of the camera, in the unlikely event that this person attempted to claim copyright. Perhaps this is a legal gray area, or perhaps it's been settled one way or another, but it's clear that de facto the Department of Justice can supersede copyright in disseminating information related to criminal investigations. --JayHenry (talk) 04:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

That is actually something I wondered about previously, as the FBI also released three images of Holloway on their website.[11] Are these images still under the copyright of whoever took them, or are they considered public domain, as they've been released by the FBI? I simply don't know enough about copyright law, but it would be worth finding out. - auburnpilot talk 04:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is something we need to find out within the context of this FAR, but it would be worth finding out for future information. Possibly some research into the Zapruder film would be a start, as I recall there was a court case over that.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note: Per the instructions on WP:FAC, please note that we believe we have addressed the concerns regarding the article's images, raised by Elcobbola (talk · contribs) and confirmed by Black Kite (talk · contribs). We've asked Elcobbola to check back with us twice, once 21:22, 5 May 2008 and again 22:20, 9 May 2008. - auburnpilot talk 13:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I've stricken addressed concerns. To clarify: I didn't articulate the concern about Image:NataleeHollowayWall-female.jpg well enough; the FoP comment was meant to be separate from the "photo" comment, but I can see how it could have been interpreted as one thought. The "wall" itself (even without the photo) is sculptural in nature and, thus, subject to copyright in the U.S. That said, however, proving a derivative work for a 3D object is substantially more difficult than with a 2D object (given the role of angles, shadowing, etc), so, not wanting to open that can of worms, I've stricken. My concern regarding Image:Lastnatalee.jpg has not been resolved. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 14:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks for getting back to us. I don't want to speak for others, but I do not share your concern for Image:Lastnatalee.jpg. I believe a case has been made, Black Kite agrees the image is debatable, and I personally do not intend to remove it. The image clearly identifies the behavior many have spoken about and pointed to as a contributing factor to the disappearance. It shows Holloway on the last night anyone saw her, in the bar where she was last seen. I do not believe the subject of the image can be equally illustrated in words. - auburnpilot talk 14:48, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Thanks also to Elcobbola for getting back to us. I am inclined to agree with AuburnPilot. It is a matter over which reasonable people can differ, and I think the image should stay. I do not know of any way to describe in prose how Natalee looked and what Natalee and others were doing, perhaps only an hour or less before Natalee was last known to have been seen. For example, her face is red, on discussion boards people have taken that as a sign of intoxication and/or dehydration. I don't offer that as truth, what I say is that people look at that and it helps form their opinions; the reader can look at that photo and ponder what was going on with her at that moment. It is valuable. It should stay.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
        • I've stricken the oppose and left the concern as a comment. I certainly agree that it is a matter over which reasonable people can differ. I also don't disagree that certain aspects would be impossible, or at least overly cumbersome, to replace the image with prose. My concern is, however, whether the image is truly necessary or a significant contribution. Indeed, it's "important" in that it's the last known photo, but does that importance transfer to being truly important for us to understand Natalee or the events? As a still, it doesn't really convey behaviour and meaningfulness of the redness of her face (an aspect that could be covered by prose) is speculative. Again, I leave it as a comment in case others want to chime in. Otherwise, my concern isn't great enough to oppose the FAC. ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 16:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Thanks again for your comments, Elcobbola. We are always searching for new, free use images, and will continue to do so. Right now, however, there doesn't appear to be a free equivalent that serves the same purpose as Image:Lastnatalee.jpg. Even as a still image, I believe it fairly accurately illustrates the general atmosphere of the trip, and the behavior of the students, in a way that could not be captured by plain text (and thus is important enough to the understanding of the subject). Thanks for striking your oppose, and we'll certainly keep your comments in mind as we move forward. - auburnpilot talk 17:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

(Might not get through everything now, will continue when I get time...)

• In general, newspaper (etc. - see MOS:ITALICS) publishers in references need italics.
• "Holloway and 124 fellow graduates of Mountain Brook High School,[22] located in an upscale suburb of Birmingham, Alabama,[23] were visiting Aruba on a five-day, unofficial senior class graduation trip.[22] - I really fail to see why the first two cites are necessary...they just make readability bad. Move [23] to the end of the sentence if you like.
• "17-year-old Joran van der Sloot" - the V in van der Sloot is later capitalised...consistency?
• "Van der Sloot initially denied knowing who Holloway was, but then Van der Sloot and Deepak Kalpoe" - sounds weird naming him twice...reword

(more later). dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 10:33, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments! Dutch naming practices is to capitalize the Van if not accompanied by a first name, otherwise it is lower case. We are consistent on that throughout. I have addressed the other concerns and await your other comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

More stuff, done offline.

• "John and Jones were released on 13 June" - shouldn't this be in the previous paragraph?
• "On Friday, 17 June, a fourth person, later identified as disc jockey Steve Gregory Croes, was also arrested." - most of those commas can go...
• "Van der Sloot called Deepak Kalpoe to tell the latter that Van der Sloot was walking home" - would "that he was walking home" work better?
• "In the months following his release..." - this paragraph is annoying with every sentence starting the same way ("Van der Sloot stated..." etc.)
• "because he believed Natalee would soon turn up" - should refer to him by surname
• "Dutch National Police(nl)" - couldn't you just have the text wlink to the nl article rather than the stuff in brackets?
• ""De Zaak Natalee Holloway" ("The Case of Natalee Holloway")" - book titles need italics
  • "Twitty's book "Loving Natalee: A Mother's Testament of Hope and Faith"" - same again
• "The prosecution appealed the Kalpoes' release." - merge this paragraph with the previous? (and perhaps the next?)
• "on Dutch TV on February 3" - wlink date
• Check paragraphs 3 and 6 of De Vries footage and "confession" section for numerous sentence starting with the same phrase
• the Philadelphia Daily News reported" - newspaper needs italics...though I don't really see the point of this paragraph...
• "Members of Holloway's family have denied drug use by Holloway." - reads awkwardly, probably better to change the second Holloway to "her"
• "they have told, and, at least one" - rmv second comma and put a "that" there
• "(which, according to Twitty, may still have been alive)" - you already said this a sentence ago
• "Senator Jeff Sessions, and Congressman Spencer Bachus, Alabama Senator Richard Shelby" - the and should go after Bachus I think (needs copyediting, this section does)

Yeah, that's about it. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for the thorough review, DM. I've implemented all of your suggested changes except for the last one. It looks like Wehwalt (talk · contribs) caught that awkward wording earlier today. [12]. Thanks again, - auburnpilot talk 01:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support. That's what I get for doing this offline. :) Everything looks good. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 01:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Tentative Support The article is exhaustive, diligently sourced, and neutral. Lead and structure are okay. References 81 and 138 look to be missing some info. I read through and gave a mild copy edit. The writing contains a good deal of legalese, but I think given the subject this is unavoidable and should not be held against the article.
• I'm of two minds about the length however. On the one hand, this received a staggering amount of media coverage, and the length of the article merely reflects this coverage. On the other hand, the coverage was mostly cable television news programs that aren't held in particularly high regard. They were desperate for any morsel of the Natalee Holloway story to feed before their ravenous audience and I'm concerned that the article gets lost in minutiae. I'm of two minds because the audience that fueled the programs would likely be grateful for the article's depth, whereas a person (like myself) who found the coverage repugnant, struggles to retain interest at such length. I would be interested to hear the nominators thoughts regarding this. --JayHenry (talk) 19:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, JayHenry, as well as your copy edit. I appreciate your view on this, since you seem to be on the opposite side of me in terms of viewing the subject matter, but I don't believe the length is inordinate. If I remember correctly, the length was briefly discussed at some point in the past, but there was no logical place to break up the article, without creating senselessly small subarticles. According to the readability link at the top of the page, the article contains 40.0 KB of readable prose, which certainly isn't a small article, but I don't believe we could adequately cover the subject in a smaller version. - auburnpilot talk 19:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I've fixed ref 138 and added a second ref to backup reference 81. I don't speak Dutch, so I can't fix the existing reference. Kww (talk · contribs) will have to check that. - auburnpilot talk 20:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused about what needs fixed. The Antilliaans Dagblad is my local paper, and hasn't got a website. The reference includes the name of the paper, the date of publication, and the original Dutch text. What more is needed? I'm happy to do it, but need to understand what needs to be done.Kww (talk) 22:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the only thing missing would be the title of the article, if you can still find it. - auburnpilot talk 22:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, cleaned the windows with that newspaper months ago. If your backup is good enough, maybe we can just go with that.Kww (talk) 22:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

It might not be a bad idea to keep both, since one has the direct text of the quote, and the second (the one I just added) confirms the context of the quote. - auburnpilot talk 23:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Please try to locate the title via a library or some other means, so future readers will be able to find the article. Without a title, searching for it in the future will be somewhat difficult. Considering the amount of English-language coverage, why are Dutch sources used? Also, pls use the correct Category:Language icons. Study B with Shepard Smith. ?? It's Studio B (TV series); please make a careful review of citations and wikilinking. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Now I'm confused, because I let people tell me that there was a problem. The citation reads ::::::*Antilliaans Dagblad May 15, 2007 pg. 12, "Onderzook bij de broers Kalpoe", original Dutch text is "een beter beeld krijgen van de plaats waar, of de omstandigheden waaronder, een delict zou zijn begaan, of waar sporen van betrokkenheid bij een delict kunnen worden vastgesteld" (Dutch).

I see you solved the confusion by correctly templating it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

So, it was published by the Antillians Dagblad on May 15, 2007. The article was titled "Onderzook bij de broers Kalpoe", and the original text was "een beter beeld krijgen van de plaats waar, of de omstandigheden waaronder, een delict zou zijn begaan, of waar sporen van betrokkenheid bij een delict kunnen worden vastgesteld". So, what is the problem?

As for "why do we use Dutch sources?", two reasons: First, because the American sources tend to be quite sloppy on the legal terminology. They refer to crimes and things by American titles. Since every legal system in the Kingdom is in Dutch, English sources wind up appearing to disagree on what is happening when they actually agree: it's just their translators disagree. Second, some of the details of the investigation were never reported in reliable English sources. Once the initial furor wore off, there were events that got picked up in English speaking blogs and similar sites, but never deemed important enough by major English-speaking news outlets to discuss. Actually, there's a third reason : I'd have to fly to Miami to get an English newspaper, and I can pick up Dutch ones at the grocery store. Kww (talk) 23:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just switched the Antillians Dagblad reference to a {{cite news}} template. I'm not sure how JayHenry and I both overlooked the title, as all the necessary information was already provided. As for the language icons, where are we using an incorrect one? - auburnpilot talk 00:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks good now, the formatting was causing confusion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

(←) Ah, my apologies. I didn't realize that was the title because of its placement in the citation, and thought it was a quote supporting the material. I'm content to support. It's long for my tastes, but well within guidelines, so I can't oppose for that (and I know it'd be like asking you to chop off your arm after you've worked so much on it). --JayHenry (talk) 18:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone. I'm currently travelling so my access is limited. I know that there are a number of things going on on the article talk page, which I just commented on, and also SandyGeorgia made some comments as edit summaries. Can I suggest that if there are unresolved concerns (including the one I just proposed a compromise to over on the article talk page), that we bring everything here?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I change the article per discussion on this and the article talk page, mostly to integrate the material from the behavior section into the article. I hope people are pleased with it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• Concerns I reviewed only the "Disappearance" section, and the issues I found are rather troubling.
  • "The students were accompanied by seven "chaperones", whose exact function is unclear." Why is chaperones in quotations? If it's according to some source, then the source should be given.
  • "According to Jodi Bearman, who organized the trip (and whom "Vanity Fair" would identify as one of the seven chaperones), "The chaperones were not supposed to keep up with their every move."" Who is this Bearman? A parent? Vanity Fair is a publication and should be italicized. Why the conditional "would"? Most importantly though, the given source does not match this statement. The quote is nowhere to be found, and neither is any mention of Jodi Bearman. Also, where is the source for the Vanity Fair parenthetical?
  • "There is little question but that the students had a good time, up until the final night." This is an odd sentence with the "but".
  • The Disappearance section does not establish the context of the trip. When did the students arrive? Where did they stay? The quote from the Commissioner just seems out of the blue.
  • "Two of Holloway's classmates agreed that the students' drinking was "kind of excessive"." Putting this in quotation marks implies that the classmates said this exact quotation, but this is certainly not the case!
  • "Holloway was last seen by her classmates leaving the vicinity of Carlos’n Charlie’s,[22]" Certainly not what the [22] source says: "The night she disappeared, Holloway went to a beach concert and then ate and danced at Carlos' n Charlie's bar and restaurant." Nothing about her classmates. Nothing about leaving the "vicinity". BuddingJournalist 21:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• I believe I have now addressed your concerns. I removed the quotes from around "chaperones" and added a reference and quote from another chaperone to clarify the section and their role (Jodi organized the trip and chaperoned, Plummer is a Mountain Brook teacher and chaperone). I removed the parenthetical mention of Vanity Fair and made reworded the sentence, adding Vanity Fair as the reference. "There is little question..." sentence removed all together. I added the date they arrived in Aruba, where they stayed, and relocated the Dompig quote later in the article, where we mention his allegation of drug use (more logical, in my opinion). Removed quotes from "kind of excessive", specified who the students were, and reworded. Holloway was last seen outside of Carlos'n Charlies so I've added a source and removed the word "vicinity" (now simply states "leaving Carlos'...". Thanks for your comments. - auburnpilot talk 22:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The only small caveat I have is that I've restored the quotes, but expanded it, so now it is the students "agreed the drinking was kind of excessive". It is in the article. While likely the kids said it, or agreed to it, it no longer creates the confusion that BuddingJournalist spoke out against above.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Incidently, the reason we had "vicinity" in there is that she was seen in the car about a block away by classmates, who may have urged her to get out of the car and gotten the response from her "Woo hoo Aruba!" But perhaps we were being too picky.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm wondering whether this article is misnamed. Disappearance of Natalee Hollaway seems the appropriate target as the article deals solely with the event and investigation and she is only notable because of it. See Disappearance of Madeleine McCann or Disappearance of Ben Needham. We're no doubt inconsistent on this and I'm wondering what others feel. Marskell (talk) 16:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The topic has come up a few times (and there have been a few bold renamings). Consensus among the three most frequent contributors has always been that the vast majority of links and searches are to Natalee Holloway, so that's what the article should be named. The policies are against having a separate biographical article: if there was a Disappearance of Natalee Holloway article, there should not be a separate Natalee Holloway article that tells you where she went to grade school, her favorite hobbies, and what she named her cat, because she isn't notable in and of herself. The policies do not dictate the title, a decision largely based on this article's name.Kww (talk) 16:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Kww. I've