July 2008
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 23:36, 31 July 2008 [1].
Warwick Castle
I'm nominating this article for featured article because I believe it fulfils the FA criteria. It's an important article about one of England's best known castles, however there are no articles about castles of FA quality so this is a bit experimental. I believe it's comprehensive and has benefited greatly from a peer review and a copy edit. All comments and suggestions for improvement are welcome. Thanks in advance. Nev1 (talk) 14:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Comments
This ref is actually a book. Should be formatted as given in the citation note at the top of the webpage. British History Online just hosts the reprint, they weren't the publisher of the original work. Same for http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=16047 and http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45121
Generally galleries of pictures are frowned on, but I don't religiously follow the MOS, so I may be incorrect on this.
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- MOS:IMAGES does not explicitly say "do not use galleries" but since there is a link to commons, I have removed the gallery. Nev1 (talk) 16:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Otherwise links checked out with the link checker, sources look okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Support Nev1 has responded to all my major concerns. Comments Opposing for now I need to be convinced that the references support the statements in the article. GrahamColmTalk 18:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence is too long. There is too much information here; please try to make at least two sentences.It is traditionally associated with the earldom of Warwick, one of the oldest in England, although it was not in their possession between the early 17th and mid-18th centuries. — There's a singular/plural problem with earldom, which makes the sentence sound wrong. Try using something like the Earls' possession.Please be more specific about the 1970s; it wasn't that long ago.- The castle was taken by Henry of Anjou, later Henry II, in 1153 when the Earl of Warwick's wife was tricked into handing over the castle, and was again lost temporarily in 1264, following a surprise attack during the Second Barons' War. — If you were new to the article, and had strategic distance, you would instantly see how funny this is. It is the ownership of the castle and not the castle itself.
- When was it used as a prison?
It don't think the castle "demonstrated" power; it was a symbol of power perhaps?Please do not use "various", it adds no information.When Fulke Greville gained ownership of the castle in 1604 it was ruinous; £20,000 was spent on its restoration. — Do you mean it was ruined, or a ruin even? And, what's twenty grand in today's money, both sterling and dollars?In the 17th century the grounds were landscaped and turned into a garden. — I think in this context landscaped and turned into a garden mean the same thing.The castle was the subject of several paintings and drawings by the Italian master Antonio Canaletto — As the paintings still exist, please use the present tense.- I think the "haunting" sections lower the quality of the article. Does it really need them?
I will have more to say about this FAC later. GrahamColmTalk 17:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
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- I have made these changes addressing your concerns. I think the outstanding issue is concerning the 'haunting' section. Hauntings have become part of the folklore surrounding Warwick Castle with attractions pandering to the public's curiosity on the subject, and some readers will be coming to this article in search of this information. I have attempted to avoid adding bias either way to this section, I have also taken steps to prevent the addition of unsourced material to the section by adding an unsourced comment. If consensus emerges that the section is inappropriate, I think the information should be integrated elsewhere into the article. Nev1 (talk) 17:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
More comments
- Warwick Castle is situated on a sandstone bluff in a bend of the River Avon, making it a naturally defensible site. — The source says that the river and cliff form natural defences, which is better.
- The castle's position made it strategically important in safeguarding the Midlands against rebellion. The military significance of the castle diminished as the Normans secured their control of England. — I can't find this in the source given, and shouldn't this be in the history section?
- Kenilworth Castle – a castle of comparative size, cost, and importance — has castle twice. GrahamColmTalk 17:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
More comments
- legend has it that the construction of the fortifications was instigated by Ethelfleda, daughter of Alfred the Great. — Why do you call this a legend? It seems to be true.
In 1088, Henry de Beaumont was made the first Earl of Warwick.[4] A Church of All Saints was founded by the first Earl of Warwick within the castle walls by 1119; the Bishop of Worcester, believing that a castle was an... — There are two occurrences of Earl of Warwick close together.
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- Changed to "In 1088, Henry de Beaumont was made the first Earl of Warwick.[4] He founded the Church of All Saints within the castle walls by 1119"
In 1153, the wife of Roger de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Warwick, was tricked into believing that her husband was dead, and surrendered control of the castle to the invading army of Henry of Anjou, later King Henry — Reference 4 has this:
On the arrival in England of Henry of Anjou in 1153, the garrison was tricked into handing over the castle to Henry's men, possibly at the instigation of the Countess Gundred in the absence of the earl, who supported Stephen and is said to have died of chagrin on hearing the news.
- We have lost the castle again.
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- That phrase only occurs once in the article, do you mean something else? Nev1 (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Lost control of the castle? Lost ownership of the castle? GrahamColmTalk 21:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I've changed it to "handed over control of the castle". For anyone reading out of context, that may seem like a complete change of tone, but the original sentence read "According to the Gesta Stephani, a 12th-century historical text, Roger de Beaumont died on hearing the news that his wife had lost the castle". Nev1 (talk) 21:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
During the barons' rebellion of 1173–74 Warwick Castle was under the control of King Henry II and was used to store provisions. — I can't find this in the source.
The castle and the lands associated with the earldom passed through six generations of the Beaumont family until 1242, when King Henry III gained ownership of Warwick Castle. — Again, can you point out where this is in the source?
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- From the online source: "Thomas the 6th earl, who died in June 1242 without male heirs. He was succeeded by his sister Margery, whose husband, John Marshal, was given seisin of her lands and of the castle but died in October of the same year. (fn. 7) The widow agreed not to remarry before the following Ascension Eve on pain of forfeiture, (fn. 8) but the castle was nevertheless ordered to be taken into the king's hand as a pledge for a suitable remarriage". Sorry that bit's rather long. I took the 6th earl of Warwick to imply there had been 6 generations, although on reflection this may have been incorrect and I have altered it slightly. Nev1 (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Similarly this: During the Second Barons' War of 1264–67, William Maudit, 8th Earl of Warwick, was an inactive supporter of King Henry III.
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- From the online source: "At an early stage of the Barons' Wars, in which the earl [William Maudit] was an inactive supporter of the king, Warwick Castle attracted the attention of John Giffard of Brimpsfield who in 1264 was holding Kenilworth Castle for Simon de Montfort." Nev1 (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
And this De Montfort ordered the walls along the northeastern side of the castle to be slighted so that it would be useless to the king.
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- From the online source: "He [John Giffard] took Warwick Castle in a surprise attack and, in the words of John Rous, 'for that it should be no strength to the king, he beat with his fellowship down the wall from tower to tower, which unto Earl Thomas's days after was hedged'". I have removed mention of de Montfort ordering it. Nev1 (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
was captured by Guy de Beauchamp, 10th Earl of Warwick, and imprisoned in Warwick Castle until his execution on 9 June 1312. — The source does not give the date.
This work was performed under Thomas de Beauchamp — Where in the source does it say this?
GrahamColmTalk 18:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Note I have read about half of the article and I will add further comments later. GrahamColmTalk 18:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
A few more comments These refer to the section 'A country house and following sections:
- The article suffers from a lack of commas, particularly this section.
In this sentence, Fulke Greville spent over £20,000 (£3,000,000 or $6,000,000 in 2007)[25] renovating the castle to make it "a place not only of great strength but extraordinary delight, with most pleasant gardens, walks and thickets, such as this part of England can hardly parallel" according to William Dugdale, a 17th century antiquary. — The according to might be better a the beginning of the sentence.Please check the article for endash and emdash usage, I think I saw a couple of misuses.There is an odd double bracket, in 2007)34).This sentence, Restoration and reparations carried out by Salvin during 1872–75 cost £9,651, which were subsidised by donations from the public, needs some attention; it's not clear what the "which" refers to.A large visitor attraction business — does not sound idiomatic.15 tons of ice — please check what, if anything, WP:MOS has to say on starting a sentence with a number.The first record of formal gardens belonging to Warwick Castle is in 1534. — ? is in 1534, sounds odd.
GrahamColmTalk 16:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- These edits have been made. Could you be more explicit in your concerns about dashes? All endashes between words are spaced, and not when linking numbers (ie: in dates) and emdashes are generally avoided. MOS does not mention numbers at the start of sentences, but I have changed it anyway. Commas? {{sofixit}}. Nev1 (talk) 18:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for an interesting FAC and the invitation to edit :) But I think I've spent enough time on the article for now. Best of luck with the rest of the candidature. Graham. GrahamColmTalk 18:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- All images are tagged and used appropriately; the nonfree image has an appropriate fair use rationale and meets WP:NFCC. —Giggy 11:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
The taller than wide thumbnail images should use the upright tag (see Wikipedia:Extended image syntax)I would prefer that the images were alternatively right and left aligned per WP:MOS#Images. This is only a suggestion.GameKeeper (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Support—My Concerns have been addressed, so I changed my preference to support. Thank you.—RJH (talk) 21:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Comment—I think this article needs a thorough copy-edit. Some notes:
"It is traditionally associated with the earldom of Warwick, one of the oldest in England, although it was not in its possession between the early 17th and mid-18th centuries." I find this sentence to be rife with ambiguities. One of the oldest castles or one of the oldest earldoms? Does the second it refer to the castle or the earldom? Please clarify the text."It was again lost temporarily in 1264..." It was regained prior to 1264? Unclear."...lands associated with the earldom passed through the Beaumont family..." Does this mean it was returned to the Beaumont family, or that they did not have control?"...has eroded the rock the castle stands on into a cliff." Seems awkwardly worded."During the 12th century, King Henry I was suspicious of Roger de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Warwick. To counter the earl's influence, Henry bestowed Geoffrey de Clinton with a position of power rivalling that of the earl." It is unclear what this has to do with the surrounding text, or the location of this castle. Please clarify in the article."...handed over castle." 'The' castle?"...are both machicolated and were residential and are considered..." Too much switching of tense and too many 'and's.
&c. &c. I stopped checking about a third of the way down.—RJH (talk) 15:41, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
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- I have made these changes per your remarks. Nev1 (talk) 16:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The following text, while interesting, makes for a jarring break in continuity: "The conspirators involved in the... ...to help in their escape." The paragraph begins with the conversion into a country house, then the theft of horses for the Gunpowder Plot, and finally back to a discussion of the conversion. Please could you fix it?—RJH (talk) 15:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
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- I see what you mean, I'd already tried (unsuccessfully) to integrate that brief mention. I'd like to put it into it's own paragraph, but it's only a couple of sentences and I can't find any more on the event. How about if I changed it to this (added text in bold):
In 1604, the ruinous castle was given to Sir Fulke Greville by King James I and was converted into a country house. Whilst the castle was undergoing repairs, it was peripherally involved in the Gunpowder Plot of 1605. The conspirators involved awaited news of their plot in Dunchurch in Warwickshire. When they discovered the plot had failed they stole cavalry horses from the stables at Warwick Castle to help in their escape.
- Comments
Weak oppose.The article is pretty good, but I think that there is a bit of detail that should be added to help readers unfamiliar with the history and the workings of castles. The images are absolutely beautiful.
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- The last paragraph of the lead may need a bit of organization work. The sentence about the paintings seems out of place in its current location - I'd move it to become the last sentence of the lead.
- In the location section, I am a bit confused as to why the information about Geofrey de Clinton and Kenilworth are included. This seems to be better situated in the history section somewhere.
The article mentions that the wife of the 2nd Earl of Warwick surrendered the castle, but later mentions another Earl of Warwick who supported Henry II. There may need to be a brief explanation of how they got the castle back.
- I think there should be some rewording and a bit more explanation of the events of 1242. Perhaps explain that the Xth Earl died, and while his eldest daughter looked for a husband the King oversaw the castle... Readers who are not familiar with this time period may be confused.
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- I've made this change to hopefully better explain what the situation was. Nev1 (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps a sentence about why Piers Gaveston was captured, imprisoned, and executed? It sort of sounds in the article like Beauchamp took matters into his own hands.
I realize that a lot of the terms are wikilinked, but I think that some of them should be explained a bit in the article, too. Otherwise there just seems to be too much jargon. For example, machicolated, barbican
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The reconstruction of the gatehouse and the east façade was also funded by the spoils of the Battle of Poitiers in 1356." - this implies that we've been told an additional funding source for the reconstruction, but we haven't
The paragraph that starts with Anne de Beauchamp dieing does not flow very well. There is a lot of repetitive wording.
Why was Edward Plantagenet executed? We find out that he was two and then that he died.
- <s.I'm not entirely sure what this means "the last Earl of Warwick on its first creation"
Per WP:MOSQUOTE, short quotations (less than 4 lines) should not be offset as block quotes, but should be in the paragraph.
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- I've removed the quote template from one quotation, but the remaining three I have left as they are for now. The problem with the MOS conditions (ie: 4 lines) is that it's subjective. The quotes are all about 3 lines on my screen but other readers with lower resolution monitors may see more. Nev1 (talk) 20:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
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Ambrose Dudley, 3rd Earl of Warwick, left the castle during the Queen's visits" - does this mean he joined her at the timber building or that he was rude and totaly left the area?
- Is it necessary to use Image:Plan of Warwick Castle.JPG as a fair use? I wonder if it would be possible to recreate the image
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- GamerKeeper is currently developing a free use version. Nev1 (talk) 15:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
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- There's now a suitable plan thanks to GameKeeper. Nev1 (talk) 20:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Is there any more information available about the rooms inside the castle? The history is told in good detail, but I feel like the structure itself is more glossed over.
Karanacs (talk) 18:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Support - The first thing I do when looking at a FA candidate is look over the references. But I saw no problems here, great job with the article. Well-referenced, kind of short for an FA but sweet and to the point. Well done. --Meldshal [T] {C} 20:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:15, 31 July 2008 [7].
2007 Atlantic hurricane season
- Nominator(s): Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone
The article went through a PR recently, passed GA today, and now I'm taking the final step in the process. That said, I feel it is certainly good enough, but I am often proven wrong in these cases. So, tell me what needs to be done. Thanks, Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Comments
- Otherwise links checked out with the link checker, sources look okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Deadlink removed. Thanks, Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- All images check out fine; appropriately tagged etc. I'll try to take a full look tomorrow. —Giggy 12:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Comments - Very nice and clean without autoformatting and thorough use of NBSPs. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Support as it seems to be well done. I have just a few concerns.
- Some passive voice
- Forecasts of hurricane activity are issued each year by noted hurricane experts Philip J. Klotzbach, William M. Gray, and their associates at Colorado State University
- Fixed. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Klotzbach noted that while the team was predicting an active season (okay, not technically passive, but why not "team predicted"?)
- Fixed. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) conditions were also noted to have been slightly cooler (this one might be justifiable)
- I think the emphasis should be on El Niño on this sentence, so I would prefer passive voice there. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- 15 people were killed and hundreds of homes destroyed after the passage of Hurricane Dean
- Fixed. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Six deaths were reported there, and in Puebla, 169 houses were destroyed
- Fixed. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- United States was affected by five Atlantic storms during the season
- Fixed. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- The names Dean, Felix, and Noel were retired by the World Meteorological Organization
- Fixed, sort of. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Forecasts of hurricane activity are issued each year by noted hurricane experts Philip J. Klotzbach, William M. Gray, and their associates at Colorado State University
- Possibly more, but it looks overall pretty well-written. Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Some passive voice
Comment - Just a picky little thing from a stat-geek. In the "Pre-season forecasts" section you say that "[t]he potential for at least one major hurricane to affect the U.S. was increased" when in fact you mean the estimated potential. The scientists don't know the actual potential, just their estimate of it. My first stat professor drilled this into my brain. The sentence is also in the passive voice, but I'm not too concerned about that. Plasticup T/C 03:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Good point, got it. Cheers, Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 13:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Suppot; chose a section at random and the prose was excellent, only had to make one minor change. I think it meets all criteria. —Giggy 09:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Support Comments - The 2007 Atlantic hurricane season was an active Atlantic hurricane season I recommend changing "active" to "busy". Just kidding, the article looks great. Here are my thoughts:
- Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale is linked to three times, plus once in the infobox and twice more in the "Season Impact" tables. I don't have a problem with the links in the templates, but just one wikilink in the body of the article should suffice.
- Since you calculated the season's total damage, Hurricane Dean has been revised downwards. Sources now say that the storm caused US$2.2 billion of damage. See the storm article (and its talk page) for details.
- Units:
- The first instances of "miles", "km" and "mbar" are not wikilinked. It also spells out "miles" twice before switching to the abbreviation "mi". WP:MOSNUM says to spell it out once, as you did with most other units.
- You may want to add inHg conversion for the mbars that have already been given.
- In "October–December" nautical miles are used for the first time. It might be less confusing to stick with statue miles (and km) throughout. If not, the first instance of "nmi" needs to be spelled out and wikilinked.
- The first instances of ft and m (in the Impact section) need to be wikilinked. "Feet" should be spelled out in its first instance.
- In the ACE section knots are mentioned for the first time. It makes sense to use knots here as that is how ACE is defined, but you should wikilink its first instance.
All in all, very good. Do you have intentions of building a Featured Topic, a la 2003 Atlantic hurricane season? Plasticup T/C 18:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Done with everything. I am considering working on a featured topic for the season, but it depends on whether the Hurricane Dean article is brought up to at least GA status by somebody. ;-) Thanks for the comments, Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Be careful, that editor working on Hurricane Dean is a bit sketchy. Changes look good, adding my support. Plasticup T/C 21:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks! Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 22:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Support - Nice job Julian. --Meldshal (§peak to me) 11:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:15, 31 July 2008 [8].
Meteorological history of Hurricane Gordon (1994)
I have worked on this article for a hundred edits or so, and I think it is as complete as it will ever be. The prose is polished, the MOS exhaustively consulted, and as far as I know it meets the FAC criteria. Plasticup T/C 17:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
*Comment: Some of the refs need to be consolidated as per WP:CITE. See "Using the same citation again", which explains how to use the <ref name=""> command. María (habla conmigo) 17:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Comment withdrawn. The refs are only deceivingly similar. María (habla conmigo) 17:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Support - This is yet another comprehensive meteorogical article. Great job, amd keep it up. --Meldshal (§peak to me) 19:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- Support I would never think that anything would go as deep as "Meteorological history of", and yet... Great article, meets all the FAC criteria. --I'm an Editorofthewikicitation needed 23:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- One thing However: "The shortwave trough that had been steering Gordon across Florida moved ahead of the storm and its influence was replaced by a mid-tropospheric ridge over the eastern United States." I have no idea what this means. Please reduce the jargon in this sentance, or add links. --I'm an Editorofthewikicitation needed 23:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- As a Tropical Depression it brushed Nicaragua and spent several days in the waters off the country's coast before winding its way north into the Greater Antilles. "Tropical depression" shouldn't be capitalized. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 00:17, July 25, 2008 ), which was interrupted by the following:
- As Tropical Storm Gordon made its fourth landfall crossing the Florida Keys, it performed a complicated interaction with an upper-tropospheric cyclone and a series of cyclonic lows which lent the storm some sub-tropical characteristics. Remove the link to Tropical storm, as it redirects to Tropical cyclone, which you've already linked once in the lead.
- After a few days as a very unusual hybrid tropical/subtropical system in the Gulf of Mexico, Gordon re-claimed its fully tropical form and made yet another landfall, this time across the Florida peninsula and into the Atlantic Ocean. "Fully tropical form" is awkwardly worded.
- The storm's characteristically wandering track briefly brought it near North Carolina, but ultimately the storm headed south, weakening into a minor Tropical Storm before making its sixth and final landfall back on Florida's east coast. "Tropical Storm" shouldn't be capitalized, and remove the word "back".
- Hurricane Gordon was the seventh named tropical storm and third hurricane of the 1994 Atlantic hurricane season. Remove the word "tropical", as any named storm is already a tropical storm.
- During the first week of November a large area of disturbed weather accumulated just north of Panama over the southwestern Caribbean Sea. "Accumulated" is a poor word choice.
- A tropical wave passed through the area and gave it mild convection. "Gave it" → "sparked".
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- I want to show that the convection came from the tropical wave. Saying "sparked" implies that it occurred somewhat spontaneously, but "gave" implies that the convection was passed from one system to the other. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- You have a point, and I actually now disagree with my own alternative. There has to be a way to word it better, though. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I changed it to "A tropical wave passed through the area and caused mild convection to form." Does that work? Or should it be clarified further, to "A tropical wave passed through the area and caused mild convection to form in the region."? Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- You have a point, and I actually now disagree with my own alternative. There has to be a way to word it better, though. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I want to show that the convection came from the tropical wave. Saying "sparked" implies that it occurred somewhat spontaneously, but "gave" implies that the convection was passed from one system to the other. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- This organization, with an initial intensity of 30 mph (45 km/h), warranted that the system be classified Tropical Depression Twelve. Clarify that 30 mph was it's maximum sustained wind.
- Spots of convection flared on the morning of November 9[4] and banding features appeared shortly thereafter even as its center made landfall on the northeastern Nicaraguan coast near Puerto Cabezas that afternoon. Run-on sentence.
- Weak steering currents could not give Gordon a firm movement[7] and it meandered north-northeast in the presence of mild west-southwesterly wind shear,[8][9][1] unable to strengthen under the adverse conditions. Keep a block of references in numerical order.
- Despite the warm waters, Gordon did not strengthen that day as strong upper-tropospheric shear retarded development,[13][14] eroded the upper level circulation, and reduced the winds to 40 mph (65 km/h). "Retarded development", while grammatically correct, could be worded better.
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- I like it as it is. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Then that becomes WP:ILIKEIT. :-) I think "Prevented development" is better, as I'm pretty sure most people associate the word "retarded" with people with learning disabilities. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Then maybe we can rob them of their narrow view and expose them to the glorious versatility of the English language. That is, after all, a hallmark of professional writing. And for the record, WP:ILIKEIT is an essay (not a policy) and is directed at AfD, not FAC. Plasticup T/C 11:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm aware that WP:ILIKEIT is directed at XfDs, but it gives the same general idea. If you like it the way it is, I cannot make you change it. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I like "precluded" more. :) *hides* Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm aware that WP:ILIKEIT is directed at XfDs, but it gives the same general idea. If you like it the way it is, I cannot make you change it. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Then maybe we can rob them of their narrow view and expose them to the glorious versatility of the English language. That is, after all, a hallmark of professional writing. And for the record, WP:ILIKEIT is an essay (not a policy) and is directed at AfD, not FAC. Plasticup T/C 11:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Then that becomes WP:ILIKEIT. :-) I think "Prevented development" is better, as I'm pretty sure most people associate the word "retarded" with people with learning disabilities. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I like it as it is. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- November 13 was a busy day for Tropical Storm Gordon. Unnecessary sentence.
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- On the contrary, I think it is vital. Prior to that section, each section represented several days of activity. I want the reader to notice that the following two paragraphs all describe events that occurred on a single day. That fact is what makes Gordon so remarkable. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- But "a busy day" is unencyclopedic, so you should either reword it or remove it. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't know what it means for something to be "unencyclopedic". The sentence introduces a very important pair of paragraphs, and adds that anthropomorphic touch that people attibute to weather. "Professional writing" doesn't have to mean "boring writing". Plasticup T/C 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not by any means does professional writing have to mean boring writing. I just think it would make the prose sound more professional to change "busy" to "active". Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't know what it means for something to be "unencyclopedic". The sentence introduces a very important pair of paragraphs, and adds that anthropomorphic touch that people attibute to weather. "Professional writing" doesn't have to mean "boring writing". Plasticup T/C 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- But "a busy day" is unencyclopedic, so you should either reword it or remove it. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I think it is vital. Prior to that section, each section represented several days of activity. I want the reader to notice that the following two paragraphs all describe events that occurred on a single day. That fact is what makes Gordon so remarkable. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Accelerating, Gordon turned towards the northeast. Would read more smoothly as "Gordon accelerated as it turned towards the northeast."
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- I disagree. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree, as well. Prose reads more smoothly with minimum comma usage. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- One comma isn't going to hurt anyone, and good writing exhibits qualities other than "smoothness". Characteristics like an interesting variety of sentence structures can differentiate engaging prose from boring drivel. Plasticup T/C 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- "As Gordon began to accelerate, it turned towards the northeast, headed towards {{insert wherever it was headed}}..." Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- One comma isn't going to hurt anyone, and good writing exhibits qualities other than "smoothness". Characteristics like an interesting variety of sentence structures can differentiate engaging prose from boring drivel. Plasticup T/C 12:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree, as well. Prose reads more smoothly with minimum comma usage. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm seeing a lot of redundancy, particularly in the form of "Wind shear continued..." or "The storm continued...", mentioning the same facts two or three times.
- Its sustained winds were still only 40 mph (65 km/h), but as the system approached eastern Cuba a gust of 120 mph (192 km/h) was reported. At first, I did a double take, and I had to go check the source. Be sure to clarify that the extreme gust was from a downburst associated with a thunderstorm.
- When Gordon crossed eastern Cuba, the NHC determined that it became the most dominant system of these low level systems and absorbed their convections. First, this is the first mention of the NHC, so you have to give the full name. Also, I don't think "convections" is grammatically correct with the plural form.
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- Expanded (and linked) the National Hurricane Center, but the grammar looks sound to me. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Convection refers to thunderstorm activity, not individual thunderstorms. Thus, it is already in a plural form. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I wasn't sure, so I had to look this up. This MCAT vocab list: convection (noun: plural: convections). And wiktionary has gravitational convection (plural gravitational convections). I can't find anything totally authoritative, but it looks like the word "convections" is okay. Plasticup T/C 12:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Enough evidence for me. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I wasn't sure, so I had to look this up. This MCAT vocab list: convection (noun: plural: convections). And wiktionary has gravitational convection (plural gravitational convections). I can't find anything totally authoritative, but it looks like the word "convections" is okay. Plasticup T/C 12:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Convection refers to thunderstorm activity, not individual thunderstorms. Thus, it is already in a plural form. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Expanded (and linked) the National Hurricane Center, but the grammar looks sound to me. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- By nightfall that day Gordon had not only made two landfalls and survived interactions with three competing systems but also, in assimilating the Bahamian low, it had also gained the cool central core typical of a subtropical cyclone. Remove "it".
- The deep-layered ridge continued to steer the hybrid Tropical/Subtropical Storm Gordon west-northwestward past the western Bahamas. Unneeded, as you already mentioned this fact before.
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- Did I? It mentions the steering of the deep-layered cyclone, the pressure gradient of the deep-layered ridge, and then the steering of the deep-layered ridge. Three effects, three sentences. Maybe I could clean up language to avoid repetition of "deep-layered", as that is a little confusing. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Steering currents remained weak[40][41] giving the storm a chance to full re-develop its deep convection while immobile at sea.[42][41][1] Again, keep references in numerical order.
- The eastward component of the storm's movement increased, and Gordon moved northeastward onto the Florida peninsula at a healthy 10 mph (17 km/h). "Peninsula" is capitalized. Also, remove "a healthy".
- Early on November 17, back over the open ocean, the storm's central pressure began to fall.[47] Improved organization was not apparent[47] and wind shear was biting into the core of the deep convection[48] when, on November 17, Gordon suddenly spawned 75 mph (120 km/h) winds and was upgraded to a Category 1 hurricane. "biting into the core" is unencyclopedic language. Also, the storm doesn't "spawn" 75 mph winds, but rather generates them. Despite sounding the same, they are slightly different,
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- There is no such thing as "unencyclopedic" language. I tried to use colorful descriptions that prevent the reader from falling asleep, but that does not make the work less "encyclopedic" than the dreadfully boring articles that constitute the majority of our current FA collection. "Spawn" is an anthropomorphic version of "generated". That is the only difference, and it is not accidental. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand. There is most certainly such a thing as language that is not suitable for an encyclopedia, which strives for professional prose. Additionally, wind shear doesn't bite into the inner core, but rather shears it apart from the convection, so that is factually inaccurate. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 02:30, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "unencyclopedic" language. I tried to use colorful descriptions that prevent the reader from falling asleep, but that does not make the work less "encyclopedic" than the dreadfully boring articles that constitute the majority of our current FA collection. "Spawn" is an anthropomorphic version of "generated". That is the only difference, and it is not accidental. Plasticup T/C 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- In its brush with the mid-Atlantic states, Gordon dropped 2–5 in (5–13 cm) on the continent with a maximum of 5.25 in (13.3 cm) recorded at Norfolk, Virginia.In its brush with the mid-Atlantic states, Gordon dropped 2–5 in (5–13 cm) on the continent with a maximum of 5.25 in (13.3 cm) recorded at Norfolk, Virginia. The Mid-Atlantic isn't a continent...
- Strong upper-level winds sprung up and sheared away Gordon's upper-level convection while polluting the storm with colder and dryer air that weakened its lower level convection. "Sprung up" is more unencyclopedic language.
- Between its three landfalls, Hurricane Gordon dumped 5–10 in (13–25 cm) of rain on Florida, with a station at Cooperstown recording 16.1 in (40.9 cm). Wait, didn't it make six landfalls? You should say "Between its three landfalls in Florida, Hurricane Gordon dumped between 5–10 in (13–25 cm) of rain in the state..."
- I'd really like to see more than a couple sentences between final landfall on Florida and dissipation.
Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 00:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Weak oppose I'm seeing improvement, but I just read through it closely, and there are still too many prose issues. Some more examples:
- The thirteen-day meteorological history of Hurricane Gordon was erratic, persistent, and highly unusual. "Thirteen" → "13". —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
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- I think that WP:MOSNUM#Numbers casts this as a choice, but if I am misreading MOSNUM I won't mind changing it. Plasticup T/C 18:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- As a tropical depression it brushed Nicaragua and spent several days in the waters off the country's coast before winding its way north into the Greater Antilles. Run-on-like.
- Here Gordon made two more landfalls on eastern Jamaica and eastern Cuba, while delivering tremendous rains to western Hispaniola. I don't like the presence of the word "here", as the previous sentence mentions nothing of the storm's location. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- As Tropical Storm Gordon made its fourth landfall crossing the Florida Keys, it performed a complicated interaction with an upper-tropospheric cyclone and a series of cyclonic lows which lent the storm some sub-tropical characteristics. Why not just "it interacted with an upper-level tropospheric cyclone..."? "Preformed an interaction" sounds awkwardly worded. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- The second paragraph of the lead mentions the name "Gordon" four times. Remember, it's a storm, not a person. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- Three of its landfalls were in the U.S. state of Florida. Link U.S. State and Florida. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- During the first week of November a large area of disturbed weather accumulated just north of Panama over the southwestern Caribbean Sea. "Accumulated" is still a poor word choice, but as I know you are inclined to keep it as it is, I will not fuss over it.
- Moving northwest, the storm began a very slow strengthening pattern[1] and developed a favorable upper outflow. Remove "a".
- Throughout the article, I see run-on sentences, and just plain sentences with no commas where needed.
- Eventually a trough prodded Gordon to the north-northeast at 8 mph (13 km/h),[11] and it strengthened slightly to 45 mph (75 km/h) as it moved through the central Caribbean Sea. It's not necessary to mention the exact winds, as it only increased by 5 mph. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
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- Okay, I have done this but let me explain the problem. The actual strengthening was 5 knots. If I convert that to mph and km/h I get 5.8 mph and 9.3 km/h. If I round to the integer I get 6 mph and 9 km/h, which is deceptive because the NHC measures wind strengths to the nearest 5 knots. So maybe I should round to the nearest 5? But then I would be saying strengthened by 5 mph (10 km/h), when anyone who knows anything about mi vs km knows that 5 mph is not the same as 10 km/h. Then it looks like I have made an error. So yeah, I thought about this during the original draft, but I'll defer to your suggestion. Current revision reads: strengthened by 6 mph (9 km/h) Plasticup T/C 18:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Despite the warm waters, Gordon did not strengthen that day as strong upper-tropospheric shear retarded development,[13][14] eroded the upper level circulation, and reduced the winds to 40 mph (65 km/h). Why not just "Gordon failed to strengthen that day"? —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
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- Failed implies intent. Also, you lose a whole load of information. There were warm waters, which usually strengthen a tropical system, and there was wind shear, which weakens tropical systems. These factors were in conflict, and the result was very slight weakening. Plasticup T/C 18:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- The "Through the Greater Antilles" section should be named simple "Greater Antilles". —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- November 13 was a busy day for Tropical Storm Gordon. I'm afraid I still greatly dislike that sentence. —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- While possible, this view was never accepted by the official hurricane summaries. What official hurricane summaries" —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
- A large ridge of high pressure near the U.S. mid-Atlantic coast increased the pressure gradient around the storm, so although its sub-tropical elements (namely a lack of deep convection) precluded a core of strong winds immediately around the storm's nucleus, strong winds were supported well outside the storm's circulatory center. First, "Mid-Atlantic" is capitalized. Second, a storm does not have a nucleus... —This is part of a comment by Juliancolton (of 14:30, 26 July 2008), which was interrupted by the following:
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- Agreed on the capitalization, but the word nucleus simply means "center". I use the word "center" later in the same sentence, and needed a synonym. Plasticup T/C 18:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- You could use "middle", "core", "eye", or even "midpoint". Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Core" is already used in that sentence and the hurricane did not have an eye. "Middle" and "midpoint" are a bit awkward and I don't think that either of them are as precise as "nucleus". And in the end, these are synonyms. What is wrong with "nucleus"? Plasticup T/C 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Nucleus" is a term that I have only heard used for describing a component to a cell. I just looked it up, and the only way it relates to meteorology is being a particle on which water vapor molecules accumulate in free air to form a droplet or ice crystal.. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Core" is already used in that sentence and the hurricane did not have an eye. "Middle" and "midpoint" are a bit awkward and I don't think that either of them are as precise as "nucleus". And in the end, these are synonyms. What is wrong with "nucleus"? Plasticup T/C 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- You could use "middle", "core", "eye", or even "midpoint". Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 21:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed on the capitalization, but the word nucleus simply means "center". I use the word "center" later in the same sentence, and needed a synonym. Plasticup T/C 18:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Let me know when these are done, and I'll be back for more examples. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Alright, here's some more examples of run-on sentences:
- Spots of convection flared on the morning of November 9[4] and banding features appeared shortly thereafter even as its center made landfall on the northeastern Nicaraguan coast near Puerto Cabezas.
- The shortwave trough that had been steering Gordon across Florida moved ahead of the storm and its influence was replaced by a mid-tropospheric ridge over the eastern United States.
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- Not a run-on sentence. Plasticup T/C 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe so, but it would benefit from having a comma after the word "storm". Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- That makes it absurdly choppy. Plasticup T/C 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not really. The way I would have modified it is by adding a comma or a period, or flat-out rewriting it: "The shortwave trough that had been steering Gordon across Florida moved ahead of the storm and stopped affecting the system. Its influence was replaced by that of a mid-tropospheric ridge located over the eastern United States." Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- That makes it absurdly choppy. Plasticup T/C 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe so, but it would benefit from having a comma after the word "storm". Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not a run-on sentence. Plasticup T/C 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- The hurricane's loop continued and as it moved to a west-northwesterly heading Gordon briefly threatened North Carolina's Outer Banks[53] before stalling offshore once again. Not really a run-on, but could use a comma.
- Strong upper-level winds battered the storm from the northwest and sheared away Gordon's upper-level convection while polluting the storm with colder and dryer air that weakened its lower level convection.
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- Not a run-on sentence. Plasticup T/C 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Seems close enough to me. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have broken it up as so: Strong upper-level winds battered the storm from the northwest. They sheared away Gordon's upper-level convection while polluting the storm with colder and dryer air that weakened its lower level convection. It is now fit for simple.wikipedia.com. Plasticup T/C 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Somewhat better. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have broken it up as so: Strong upper-level winds battered the storm from the northwest. They sheared away Gordon's upper-level convection while polluting the storm with colder and dryer air that weakened its lower level convection. It is now fit for simple.wikipedia.com. Plasticup T/C 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Seems close enough to me. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 01:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not a run-on sentence. Plasticup T/C 22:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- The high pressure system over the continent continued pulling the depression west[63][64] until it made its final landfall near Cape Canaveral that night with winds of 30 mph (45 km/h). Could also use a comma. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone
