July 2007
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:04, 31 July 2007.
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial
Nom restarted (old nom) Raul654 16:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- Oh come on. I was so close. Alientraveller 16:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- Posting Gran2's comments so that it is easy to read them: "I personally feel that this article is as comprehensive as it needs to be. I wouldn't have supported it at the start of its FAC, but the recent changes to the structure and cutting back of FU images is good in my mind. I learnt a lot from this article, particularly because I knew next to nothing about the film, having only seen it once. But there you are, a very fine article in my book. Awadewit | talk 03:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Object
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- 1a - "the prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard" - While I feel that is very difficult to achieve "brilliant" writing on wikipedia (too many editors, too many restrictions on the prose style), I do feel that a "professional standard" is achievable. That has not yet been reached here; please find a good copy editor who has not worked on this article to review it.
- 1b and 1c - ""Factually accurate" means that claims are verifiable against reliable sources and accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge." - The article does not use the most reliable sources. In the "Themes" section (which I am happy to see has been added), for example, the editors have ignored all of the film criticism written by scholars on this film. Thus the variety of interpretations of the film, the explanations of the film's meaning and a history of its iconographic status in American society are lost.
- 1d - There is a slight POV in this article. Statements such as The film is a reflection of Steven Spielberg's childhood are POV. That is one interpretation of the film. There are others that are just as valid. Spielberg should not be given priority here (see intentional fallacy).
- 2d - "consistently formatted inline citations" - The footnotes are not consistently cited. Awadewit | talk 23:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I tried looking up other sources, including one Bignole sent to me, but it was sheer rubbish. Nonetheless, I'll try to expand the themes section. But your POV accusation is bizzare, and I'll ignore it. Alientraveller 09:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I am not sure why you are saying that all of the film criticism on E.T. is "rubbish." By the way, editors do not get choose what to include and what to ignore in such a broad fashion. The whole point of WP:NPOV and WP:ATT is that articles must represent the published opinions on the matter, not the editors' opinions. Therefore the editors must try to sort through the criticism and find the general points of agreement as well as any important interpretations. Awadewit | talk 10:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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- When I meant rubbish, I meant poorly written. I didn't get it at all: so therefore I am unable to refine the point and incorporate it. Alientraveller 10:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. You decided not to include any film criticism by scholars because you thought their writing was bad or because you didn't understand it? The quality of the writing is immaterial; whatever articles and books published by film scholars that exist should be the basis of particular parts of the article, such as the "Themes" section since such work represents the consensus of scholars on the topic. If you didn't understand it, you need to ask someone else to read it and add the appropriate material into the article. Lack of comprehension is also not a sufficient reason for excluding such a wide body of work. Awadewit | talk 10:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- I can't include because I cannot understand it. It's that simple a problem. Alientraveller 11:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- The POV objection is anything but bizarre. The article should not privilege Steven Spielberg's interpretation of his own film. Statements such as the one I quoted do just that. Taking some time to delve into film criticism as a discipline would help you understand why that is such a flawed method. I tried to explain the problems with such a method before, but to no avail; perhaps others can do better than I. Awadewit | talk 10:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Well it's his film, he's telling the story. Indeed, we should try to incorporate other views, but we should put fringe views over Spielberg. Do you plan to do any work on the article by the way? Alientraveller 10:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Please read intentional fallacy, as I suggested. The discipline of film criticism, whose practitioners are the experts that this article should rely on, do not agree with you regarding the importance of Spielberg's interpretation. I am not advocating including "fringe" interpretations. I am advocating including scholarly interpretations. The methods of film scholars need to be respected in this article, if it is to be an FA, because they are the experts in this field. Whether or not you agree with their methods is irrelevant - the article cannot reflect the editors' desires or opinions. It must reflect the published work on the topic. I cannot repeat this enough. It doesn't matter if you radically disagree with what the sources say, you must still include and explain it because that is what reliable experts have said. Here is an example. I study eighteenth-century children's literature and I have very specific opinions about certain texts and authors that are radically different from the published material (for example, I feel that religion is central to the Mary Wollstonecraft's Original Stories from Real Life), but I cannot refuse to include what those other scholars have said on the text, even if I think they are wrong, because they are published and I am not (yet). Only when my articles have been published, can I challenge those other interpretations. If you really want to say in any film article that the filmmaker's opinions should be given more weight than any other person's, you are going to have to publish something on that, because that is not the current state of the scholarship. I hope that explanation is clear. Awadewit | talk 10:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- The POV objection is anything but bizarre. The article should not privilege Steven Spielberg's interpretation of his own film. Statements such as the one I quoted do just that. Taking some time to delve into film criticism as a discipline would help you understand why that is such a flawed method. I tried to explain the problems with such a method before, but to no avail; perhaps others can do better than I. Awadewit | talk 10:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
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- I do not plan on doing any work on the article. As I have repeatedly said, I do not feel that reviewers, especially at FAC, are bound to edit articles that they feel do not meet the criteria. If that were the case, none of us would do anything else. We review what people bring to us. Oftentimes the separation between reviewer and editor is beneficial. Reviewers have more distance from the article and can evaluate it more dispassionately and objectively. Awadewit | talk 10:14, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Comment At the moment, I have to agree with Awadewit. The article really does need a tip-to-toe, serious copyedit. I've done a little tonight and I'll pitch in some more tomorrow, but some more help would definitely be appreciated. I won't pretend to love this movie, but it is extremely significant and deserves an FA level article. A good effort has been made already, but/and a good deal of work remains to be done.—DocKino 05:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. Alientraveller 09:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Support- I stumbled on the article accidentally and was amazed this wasn't an FA already. Re the criticism of the film being an interpretation of Spielberg's childhood, surely this could be rectified by rewording the article to state that Spielberg created the film with his childhood experiences in mind - it's a minor problem at any rate. Johnleemk | Talk 15:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)- Yes, the Spielberg problem can partly be rectified that way, but not entirely. You seem to be missing the point the article is missing substantial research. It has only two interpretations of the film and none of the material in that section is based on "expert testimony", you might say. Please look at the sources - there is no scholarship there whatsoever. Awadewit | talk 13:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- I was mistaken about the breadth of the sourcing; the nominator has clearly not covered the scholarship out there as brought up in your original opposing comment. (And I am aghast that people think "these sources aren't online" is a good enough excuse not to cite them.) I think this is still a fine article, but clearly insufficiently comprehensive. I wouldn't mind seeing it pass, since I'm of the laxer old school when it comes to FAs, but this is an article I can't support. It's a great article, but it could be so much better. Johnleemk | Talk 02:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support - As far as I can tell, the issues raised above have been sufficiently addressed. It felt a little long, but it's only 35 KB. BenB4 13:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, the issues haven't been addressed. I just looked backed at the "Themes" section. There are still only two interpretations. The Spielberg childhood bit and the Christian bit. As the primary editor has admitted that he cannot understand scholarly film criticism, we have a problem. I hope he is looking for someone to help him out, because I know that those two interpretations aren't the only two, nor do they represent the "mainstream" opinion among scholars (the experts we are supposed to be relying on). I could tell this from my quick survey of the articles while digging up research on the previous go-around for this FAC. Awadewit | talk 13:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's not your right to just tramp over someone else's opinion. Either way, that's all I've found under WP:V. At least there's no fringe views. Alientraveller 15:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not "tramping" over other people's opinions. I'm simply saying that if the two reviewers above would take the time to check the scholarship like I did, or stop to carefully consider what is in the article, they would realize that this article is incomplete. Awadewit | talk 20:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well we now have tolerance as another theme, if you were wondering. But I look forward to finding more reliable sources. Until then, I don't think you should go around telling people "what" they should think. Alientraveller 08:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- You still seem to be missing the fundamental point, though, which is that the "Themes" section should be primarily based on research into film criticism. The tolerance theme is sourced to the producer on the DVD. There is already plenty of material on the page about what the filmmakers thought the film was about. While that is important, it is not the end all, be all of interpretation. The article is still missing the expert's interpretations. Awadewit | talk 09:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- You mean viewers' interpretations? Well unlike say, The Prestige, which is meant to be up to the viewer's interpretation, the filmmakers clearly state their intent, and anything else could be fringey. Rest assured, the Christ-figure stuff is there, which is an important interpretation of the film. More stuff will be added, but for now, the section is fine: adding quotes for the sake of it isn't necessary. Alientraveller 09:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, I don't mean viewers' interpretations. As I have said over and over again, I am talking about film scholars. Their views are not "fringe" necessarily. The editors of this article are responsible for finding the most common scholarly interpretations of this film. Just because the filmmakers state their intent, doesn't mean that that intent is conveyed or that that meaning is the only one. Please read intentional fallacy again. The Christian interpretation should be sourced to a peer-reviewed publication, meaning a legitimate version of it would have been published in a peer-reviewed academic journal. You have not cited it from any such place - you have cited it from a book on E.T. citing a pamphlet. I am not asking you to add quotes for the sake of it - I am asking you to do real research. Awadewit | talk 10:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It flows perfectly fine, and film scholars are viewers. Anyway, I have little access to such editorials, and the one I read amounted to nothing really. But rest assured, Bignole will be adding some soon. Alientraveller 10:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is not about flow. It is about basing the article on the best available sources. You have not done that. Wikipedia policy, rightly says, that its articles will primarily be based on secondary sources written by experts (in this case academics). This section, in particular, is based on primary sources (the filmmakers themselves). Please read this explanation of sources. Just two other bits of information, articles published by scholars are not "editorials" (editorials are opinion pieces published in newspapers) and I have a hard time understanding how you can say that the article you read "amounted to nothing" when you admitted you could not understand it. I am happy that Bignole is helping you out. I look forward to seeing the article improved. Awadewit | talk 10:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It flows perfectly fine, and film scholars are viewers. Anyway, I have little access to such editorials, and the one I read amounted to nothing really. But rest assured, Bignole will be adding some soon. Alientraveller 10:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- You still seem to be missing the fundamental point, though, which is that the "Themes" section should be primarily based on research into film criticism. The tolerance theme is sourced to the producer on the DVD. There is already plenty of material on the page about what the filmmakers thought the film was about. While that is important, it is not the end all, be all of interpretation. The article is still missing the expert's interpretations. Awadewit | talk 09:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's not your right to just tramp over someone else's opinion. Either way, that's all I've found under WP:V. At least there's no fringe views. Alientraveller 15:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- (deindent) If it helps, think of this as a novel instead. The article covers the author's interpretation of the work, some casual readers' interpretations, and very little literary criticism. If there were no scholarly work on E.T., that would be one thing, but film scholars have written about it, and given their own interpretations of it, and the article does not fully reflect this. Johnleemk | Talk 17:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Johnleemk's objections. I don't have time to work on the article, but a few good sources I found in a jstor search are The Look Back in "E.T.", by Ilsa J. Bick, Cinema Journal 1992; Enter Textuality: Echoes from the Extra-Terrestrial, by Thomas A. Sebeok, Poetics Today 1985; Of Living Machines and Living-Machines: Blade Runner and the Terminal Genre, by William Fisher, New Literary History 1988. Calliopejen1 08:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well that sucks considering I can't enter that database. Alientraveller 10:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- But the articles are still available in major public libraries and university research libraries. Awadewit | talk 11:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- I certainly don't have access to a university. Alientraveller 11:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Almost all major public universities (such as state universities) allow the public to use their resources. Most private universities will do so, if you explain your research interests. Awadewit | talk 11:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Where do you live? Things might be different this side of the Atlantic. Alientraveller 12:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Which side are you on? I am on the American side. As far as I know, though, British public and university libraries have become much more open in the past few decades. Awadewit | talk 12:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well not as I'm concerned. The Harrow libraries I am member of don't really offer much beyond books and language learning materials. The Internet is my main resource. But Bignole has told me to take my mind off this article. As I'm concerned, it's FA, and savage it as you wish, but I care not for one little section where I have to find books and visit universities for a general purpose encyclopedia. Good day, and until then, I hope to find more people to help out. Maybe including you, so you can put your keyboard where your keyboard... No wait that won't work... Alientraveller 12:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is always interlibrary loan. If you don't want to do research, perhaps you should find something else to do on wikipedia. Writing articles requires "finding books" and "going to libraries", I'm afraid. What do you think the Encyclopedia Brittanica's articles are, exactly? They are articles written by scholars who have spent years "reading books" and "going to libraries". In order to replicate their articles or do better, we must be willing to undertake the same research. Awadewit | talk 06:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well not as I'm concerned. The Harrow libraries I am member of don't really offer much beyond books and language learning materials. The Internet is my main resource. But Bignole has told me to take my mind off this article. As I'm concerned, it's FA, and savage it as you wish, but I care not for one little section where I have to find books and visit universities for a general purpose encyclopedia. Good day, and until then, I hope to find more people to help out. Maybe including you, so you can put your keyboard where your keyboard... No wait that won't work... Alientraveller 12:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Which side are you on? I am on the American side. As far as I know, though, British public and university libraries have become much more open in the past few decades. Awadewit | talk 12:29, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Where do you live? Things might be different this side of the Atlantic. Alientraveller 12:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Almost all major public universities (such as state universities) allow the public to use their resources. Most private universities will do so, if you explain your research interests. Awadewit | talk 11:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- I certainly don't have access to a university. Alientraveller 11:37, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- But the articles are still available in major public libraries and university research libraries. Awadewit | talk 11:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- From the themes section: "Universal Studios appealed directly to the Christian market, with a poster reminiscent of Michelangelo's Creation of Adam and a logo reading "Peace"." Do you have a source for this? I agree that the poster looks like that but it's nowhere near obvious enough to stand on its own merits. Calliopejen1 15:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Done. Alientraveller 15:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support. Lots of information and nicely written. Avala 16:30, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Oppose—Reluctant neutral. 1a, but it's nearly there. Get someone fresh to run through. It was too easy to pick up little glitches at random.- "$10.5 million"—MOSNUM says don't link it this way. And why make us hit the dollar link to find that you mean US dollars? Who needs it linked? Just "US$10.5 million", please, and subsequently just $XX, unlinked.
- "E.T.."—English-speakers never double the dots at the end of a sentence. Right back to Fowler and beyond. One dot counts for both roles here.
- "E.T. was an enormous box office hit"—Hits are enormous, aren't they, so remove the bloat word?
- "The film was rereleased in 1985 and 2002, with altered special effects and additional scenes for the 2002 version." Repetition/redundancy (This is exposed in the lead.) "The film was rereleased in 1985, and in 2002 with altered special effects and additional scenes." Don't you think?
- "to keep it hidden from their mother and the government"—very odd couple, mom and government.
- "due in part to E.T. becoming intoxicated after drinking Coors beer at home and ..."—Ungrammatical noun plus gerund ("E.T. becoming"). Nominalise it: "due partly to E.T.'s intoxication from drinking Coors beer and ..."
- dubs itself "E.T."—See MOS on "Words as words". I think this should be italic instead of quoted, whereas "phone home" is an actual quote of what the creature says in the film, yes?
- "to get convincing emotional performances from his cast"—Get? Professional writing would avoid this dull thud. Try "achieve" or something else.
- "A scene that Spielberg said triggered speculation as to whether the film was intentionally a religious parable." Believe it or not, this caption is just a nominal group (large noun). MOS says no period.
I'd like to see this one succeed. Tony 04:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Done, and further copyediting was done for the reception section. Alientraveller 08:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Last para under "Plot" needs a bit of attention: E.T. "dies" and "awakens"? Perhaps "dies/revives", or "appears to die/awakens". Also, E.T. is "it" throughout except in last two lines of this para where there are two "his" and two "he". (Unless I've missed a subtlety here?) PamD 09:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Asked to revisit this: here's what's been done since. It's improved.
- "a gross of $11 million"—Nope, "grossing $11 ...". And am I being dumb, or do you need to say "in the first ?weekend", or some such time-phrase?
- MOS says you must use en dashes for page ranges, not hyphens. ("25–41", not "25-41"). Please fix. I'm not entirely happy, and would be pleased for this to receive more sprucing. Guess I'll go to neutral. Tony 12:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support. Good article. I just have a few concerns and hope these can be adressed:
- "The film was shot from September to December 1981 in California on a budget of US$10.5 million." According to the infobox this figure is only an estimate. If this is the case, then that sentence should also reflect it.
- "Tamara De Treaux, another dwarf, and a boy born without legs took turns wearing the costume, depending on what scene was being filmed." Why "another" dwarf? She's the first dwarf mentioned in the article?
- "Spielberg drew the story of E.T. from the divorce of his own parents" That's really been mentioned often enough.
- "George Will was one of few to pan the film, feeling it spread subversive notions about childhood and science." Would it be possible to have just a few words elaborating on what he meant exactly?--Carabinieri 00:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support A great article for a great film Green Owl Uh uh
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:04, 31 July 2007.
CM Punk
After the article failed last October, several improvements have been made to the article, and I feel that it could pass FA this time. If any small, minor edits are needed, I will rectify it. Davnel03 16:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Despite popular belief that this lead to his release from TNA, fueled by the fact Punk didn't appear on TNA after this incident, Punk has stated that this had no bearing on his TNA career and the reason he stopped appearing on TNA was that TNA officials believed that he and Dinero had not gotten over as heels, having turned on Raven becoming a tag team managed by their old rival James Mitchell, and so the angle had been put on hold.[15] - This is bit of a long sentence and would benefit from being split into two sentences. LuciferMorgan 13:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Y Done - might need slight adjustments. Davnel03 16:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - The linking of dates in this article is not uniform throughout the aritcle. In some places, full dates (i.e January 31, 1981) are linked, and in other places only the day/month ( February 4, 1981) part is linked. I understand that after a particular year has been linked once, you may not want to link it again, however even that method of date-linking has not been done uniformly throughout the article. I also tend to shy away from linking single years (i.e. 2001) unless it signifies something extremely important. Thanks :) --Naha|(talk) 18:14, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support After reading a number of professional wrestling articles on wikipedia I must say this is one of the best I have read and think it deserves FA status well done! (Everlast1910 16:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC))
- Support I believe that this article should be awarded FA status, quite simply because all of the above issues raised with the article have been fixed. If no other problems are presented, this article should pass. --SteelersFan UK06 03:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support. Very extensively well written article, sources check out good with all statements cited. Photos work well with the article.--Kranar drogin 01:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- CommentAfter leaving the federation because unlike his friends Punk genuinely wanted to be a wrestler and saw it as more than simple fun Punk enrolled as a student at the "Steel Domain" wrestling school in Chicago, where he was trained by Ace Steel, Danny Dominion and Kevin Quinn to become a professional wrestler and as part of the training wrestled at St. Paul's Steel Domain Wrestling. That sentence is too long and puts several different statements together in one big sentence. You should consider revising it for readability and make it at least 2 sentences. Otherwise a very well written article IMO MPJ-DK 05:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Y Done Nikki311 18:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Try avoiding the scrolly box for references. Pandacomics 17:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree since I've seen people make a big deal of it before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/European_Parliament and its links to other discussions). DrWarpMind 22:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Y Done Davnel03 07:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree since I've seen people make a big deal of it before (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/European_Parliament and its links to other discussions). DrWarpMind 22:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Scrollref was deleted by the community because it messes up printed versions and mirrors; please remove the scrolls. Incorrect use of bolding throughout, see WP:MOSBOLD. A good portion of the article is lists or trivia. Ohio Valley Wrestling (the bulk of your sources) returns a 404 error.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Y Done Davnel03 08:14, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- Struck. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:04, 31 July 2007.
Night of the Long Knives
Self-nomination. This article details a critical event in modern history. I have used a variety of scholarly sources to document it, especially the two most respected sources in English on Hitler, those by Richard J. Evans and Ian Kershaw. I have sourced almost every factual statement in the article, and strove to cover all significant points even-handedly. Although I have dramatically overhauled the article, I did it after responding to constructive criticisms of a number of editors. It has been peer reviewed by four or five established editors (see discussion page). It also passed GA status on its first nomination. I have also examined the article for WP:MOS adherence. Again, this is an important subject, and it deserves to be a FA. I welcome any suggestions on how to further improve this article.--Mcattell 01:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment are there any web refs available?Rlevse 11:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- There are a couple of websites that deal with the subject matter. One is so throughly erroneous (meaning contradicted by written sources by professional historians) I didn't include it in the external sources area. One is adequate, but does not deal with the subject as well as any of the books do. Some of the major books cited have been scanned and available on the web at Amazon.com, through the "Search Inside" feature. If you search for "purge" or "knives" in the book, you can get to the material that deals with the subject matter. Hope this helps. --Mcattell 13:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Print based material is always preferred over web based material, so good job on using book sources. LuciferMorgan 13:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
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The Night of the Long Knives represented a turning point in the conduct of German government. From then on, it was clear that the Nazi Party was in unquestioned control of the state, that Hitler was in control of the Nazi party, and that both were fully prepared to use brutal violence to accomplish their political objectives. - Would you say this is a viewpoint commonly held by scholars who've studied the event, or are there historians who hold a differing view as to the significance of this event? LuciferMorgan 13:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
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That sentence was one of the few that have remained intact from the article of several months ago, and probably needs to be revised. I will revise within the next twelve hours.--Mcattell 15:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)- Cool, as I was just curious as to whether historians wholly agree on that or if they have differing arguments (as you know, historians tend to emphasis certain events and motives etc.). LuciferMorgan 17:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Y Done: I limited the concluding paragraph to statement that adheres to the broad consensus of historians of the era.--Mcattell 23:16, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Cool, as I was just curious as to whether historians wholly agree on that or if they have differing arguments (as you know, historians tend to emphasis certain events and motives etc.). LuciferMorgan 17:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if it's a broadly held opinion by historians, then I proclaim my Support. Good work, and I hope you lend your talents to other Nazi events like the Reichstag Fire or Kristallnacht - I find it an interesting period of history. LuciferMorgan 01:24, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Support - Article is very well-written and informative, discusses an important topic, has many reliable references, and has images that greatly add to the article (with detailed rationales for the two fair use images). that require such).
Upon reading the article, I had a few minor concerns:
- Wording - as the German courts and parliament, or Reichstag - Is clarification of "Reichstag" necessary? This is a fairly familiar term for most people, and people who would like to learn more about it can easily click on the link. If clarification is necessary, I would think it should go after the prominent wikilink, such as: as the German courts and Reichstag, or parliament. The same goes for the sentence about the Reichswehr, though I'll admit this is a less familiar term that may be in need of clarification.
Y Done - Link to Reichstag - The wikilink in the article for Reichstag directed the user to the dab page for Reichstag. I fixed the link, and it now directs to Reichstag (institution), but possibly the Reichstag (building) article would also be appropriate. Anyway, as the dab page is clearly not the intended redirect, I went ahead and changed the link.
- Quote - "A chancellor sentences and shoots members of his own private army!" he wrote. - Not a grammar expert, but wouldn't He wrote, "A chancellor sentences and shoots members of his own private army!" or "A chancellor sentences and shoots members of his own private army!", he wrote be more appropriate?
Y Done - Online links - I know it has already been mentioned above that there are no online refs available, but are there absolutely no websites that give non-contradictory information that could be used as external links? A few external links would add to the article and give readers the chance to go outside Wikipedia and get more information.
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- There is a website called "Spartacus International" that used to be in external links, but I removed it because most of what is written there is flat-out wrong. Not only that, but it's just stub. In fact, the site seems to implicitly excuse Hitler by incorrectly minimizing his role. Just a few examples from that site:
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- "Many were shot as soon as they were captured but Hitler decided to pardon Roehm because of his past services to the movement." That's completely untrue. No historian that I have ever read mentions anything about a pardon. It never happened. Why would Hitler even issue a "pardon" since the courts were never involved in the first place?
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- "However, after much pressure from Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler, Hitler agreed that Roehm should die." False. Goering and Himmler wanted Rohm to die, but they did not have to pressure Hitler. Hitler made his own decision.
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- "The purge of the SA was kept secret until it was announced by Adolf Hitler on 13th July." Again, flat-out wrong. As it is now correctly stated in the Wikipedia article, Gobbels made a radio address to the nation much earlier to try to squelch rapidly spreading rumors about the purge.
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Most of the earlier entry on Wikipedia, from a few months ago, seems to have been simply cut and paste from this site. I won't object if somebody adds this site to the "External Links" section, but when a website contains such erroneous information I (IMHO) would prefer that Wikipedia not directly link to it, because it implicitly lends credence to the stub. In any event, I think that the subject of Nazism itself leads to more erroneous and disreputable sites than, say, the history of New Zealand, so we should choose external links with care. In any event, I did add links to Brittanica Concise, a free site, and to a site at the Holocaust Museum.
Y Done--Mcattell 16:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Overall, my concerns are minimal. This is a great article that is worthy of FA status. A job well done. Raime 01:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
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I think that these are excellent points, and I will address them soon.
Y Done Thanks for your help.--Mcattell 02:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support I think this is FA quality, I do have some small concerns.
- Hitler and the Sturmabteilung (SA) I wonder if the first few paragraphs need a little reorganization. The section starts in 1933 with Hilter's appointment and follows the next few month's political events. Then we jump back the 1920's and then focus in June 1932 how that violent month had influence on support for Hitler. Then we reintroduce Hitler's appointment and the political events following it and the rest of the section continues chronologically.
- Conflict between the army and the SA
- A combat veteran of the First World War, Röhm had recently announced that he would execute twelve men in retaliation for the killing of any stormtrooper. This sentence must have been moved around, because I cannot place what "recently" should be compared with. Also I am not sure who is killing SA members? the army? the communists in street brawls? This just seems out of context.
- Blomberg and many of his fellow officers regarded the SA as a plebeian brown-uniformed mob that endangered the position of the army as the sole repository of German military power. and Blomberg and others in the military saw the SA as a source of recruits for an enlarged and revitalized army. These statements seem contradictory, and it especially troubling because they are separated by a paragraph. I think the issue of how they could hold both views at the same time needs to addressed. Whether with "at worst, at best" or focusing on the first view being about an independent uncontrolled SA and the second view being their hope for the SA once brought to heel.
- In January 1934, Röhm presented Blomberg with a memorandum demanding that the SA replace the army as the nation's ground forces, and that the Reichswehr become a training adjunct to the SA. I still would like a little more background about this. What possessed Rohm to make such a move? Why did he think it would be supported? How did Blomberg immediately respond? Did anything happen between the memo and the meeting at the end of Feb.?
- Growing pressure against the SA:Good work on this section since the peer review. I think is much more informative now.
- By the spring of 1934, Röhm's vision of a new German army with the SA at its core came into conflict with Hitler's plan to consolidate power and expand the Reichswehr. Because their plans for the army were mutually exclusive, Röhm's success could only come at Hitler's expense. Considering we already covered the memo and the pledge this seems to be backtracking. It seems to me that after Rohm signs the pledge his "vision of a new German army with the SA at its core" is pretty much dead. If I am correct I think you need to do a little rearrangement here; memo, conflicting visions, and finally meeting resulting in pledge. If I am wrong, maybe you can clarify that Rohm did not plan on honoring that pledge or signed only because it was expedient. Or something else actually based on sources to reinforce that his vision held even after signing the pledge.
- and the hoped for (but never attained) command of the army for Göring. I find this very awkward, how about something like "and Goring saw the destruction of a chief rival for the future command of the army."
- Purge
- Enraged, Hitler tore the epaulets off the shirt of Obergruppenfuhrer Schneidhuber, the Chief of the Munich Police, and shouted at him that he would be shot. Is this the Chief of Munich Police a member of the SA? or was he supposed to have stopped the street violence? I am a little confused about how this ties in.
- Arriving back at party headquarters in Munich, Hitler addressed the assembled. Consumed with rage, Hitler denounced "the worst treachery in world history." The fact that no plot by Röhm to overthrow the regime ever existed did not prevent Hitler from denouncing the leadership of the SA. "Undisciplined and disobedient characters, and asocial or diseased elements," according to Hitler, would be annihilated. The crowd, which included many SA members fortunate enough to escape arrest, shouted its approval. Hess even volunteered to shoot the "traitors" himself. Göbbels, who had been with Hitler at Bad Wiessee, set the final phase of the plan in motion. Upon returning to Berlin, he telephoned Göring with the codeword Kolibri to loose the execution squads on the rest of their unsuspecting victims This paragraph is a little problematic and lacks cohesion. "the assembled" needs to be clarified. The second and third sentence need to be combined somehow so you not talk of how Hilter wasn't prevented from denouncing the plot after a quote of him denouncing the plot. Is Hess at this assembly? Is Gobbels? Does the reaction of the assembly have an impact on Gobbels putting the purge in motion?
- Such relentless violence cemented the fearsome reputation of the Gestapo as the Nazis' secret police. I am not very skilled at grammar but this sentence doesn't sit well with me.
- Aftermath
- The army's support for the purge, however, would have consequences for the institution. This doesn't really say anything, what are "consequences for the institution"? consequences on it's independence? consequences on it's reputation?
- the later enormity of the Holocaust. Earlier "the commandant of the Dachau concentration camp" is mentioned. Is the Holocaust an ongoing or future event at this time?
- Tone:In the peer review one of my big concerns was tone. You have done a great job addressing that. There were two phrasing that still seemed overly dramatic to me.
- Germany's inter-war experiment with democracy, the Weimar Republic.
- loose the execution squads on the rest of their unsuspecting victims.--BirgitteSB 23:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Conditional support after some issues are addressed:
- In Aftermath, we read: Concerned with presenting the massacre as legally sanctioned, Hitler had the cabinet approve a measure on July 3 that declared, "The measures taken on June 30, July 1 and 2 to suppress treasonous assaults are legal as acts of self-defense by the State." In the next paragraph, we read: In the following weeks, Reich Justice Minister Franz Gürtner, a conservative who had been Bavarian Justice Minister in the years of the Weimar Republic, demonstrated his loyalty to the new regime by writing a law that added a legal veneer to the purge. It met no opposition in the Reichstag.
- These paragraphs read as though they are describing two different measures, while in fact they both talk about the same law passed by the Cabinet, the Gesetz über Maßnahmen der Staatsnotwehr of July 3, 1934. This should be cleaned up. (The paragraphs also contradict each other as to who provided the impetus for this law: Hitler or Gürtner?)
- Also, the legal citation for the law should be provided (RGB 1934 I, S. 529).
- Since Hitler had made the Reichstag pass the Enabling Act of 1933 which allowed the Executive to enact laws, it apears superfluous to mention that the law met no opposition in the Reichstag. The Reichstag had already ceased to function as a legislative assembly, and I'm not eve sure whether it regularly met at all at this time.
- Instead of "as legally sanctioned", wouldn't be "as lawful" better? Sandstein 07:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- In Aftermath, we read: Concerned with presenting the massacre as legally sanctioned, Hitler had the cabinet approve a measure on July 3 that declared, "The measures taken on June 30, July 1 and 2 to suppress treasonous assaults are legal as acts of self-defense by the State." In the next paragraph, we read: In the following weeks, Reich Justice Minister Franz Gürtner, a conservative who had been Bavarian Justice Minister in the years of the Weimar Republic, demonstrated his loyalty to the new regime by writing a law that added a legal veneer to the purge. It met no opposition in the Reichstag.
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- These are excellent suggestions, and I will address them within the next week. (I'm a little sick right now). --Mcattell 16:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Support An engaging and articulate retelling of a fairly shocking series of events. Ceoil 20:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:04, 31 July 2007.
Postage stamps of Ireland
Self nomination A well rounded article deserving of WP:FA status as it meets the criteria for an FAC so I look forward to seeing this become the first philatelic FA.
A couple of Philately WikiProject editors have suggested this is the best quality "Postage stamps of ..." articles on Wikipedia and that it is likely of WP:FA quality. One editor said that we should aspire that all "Postage stamps of ..." articles should be of this depth and quality of content. As the primary editor of this article, sure I am biased, but I think objective too; I agree with them, considering it took more than 3 months to write, checking details from all the sources listed. On that point, my only concern is with the bibliographic references that are used as sources for many of the statements made. I wonder if these should not be inline but in doing that I suspect there would be no cleanly laid out books section? By way of background to my contributions you might look at a couple of my other recent major page edits, such as, Postal history and Letter sheet as well as my active work on the Philately Portal. ww2censor 18:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Object: My apologies, I'm skimming this and commenting on random bits:
Non-free images lack fair use rationale.The lead is insufficient.Why is there a blank section? (Exhibition souvenirs) Years seem to be overlinked (for my taste), yet I see complete dates that aren't linked. The word present links to 2006? Instead of "from 1922 to present", why not "since 1922", which avoids the issue altogether? I'd suggest something similar for the "now"s that link to June (!) 2007.Date ranges need en dashes, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes). There are too many headings and subheadings for the current text. For example, "Postage dues" has many one-sentence subheadings. Pagrashtak 19:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Follow up: I believe I have addressed all your concerns:
- The fair use rational for stamp is that unless there is a specific copyright permission they can only be used in articles about the stamps themselves. So all non-free images now include a statement that fair use is claimed as this an absolutely fair use because they are used in an article about stamps. That issue was talked about before where stamps were used in non-stamp articles but that is not the case here.
- The introduction was incorporated into the lead at some stage but I though that was too long in that form. I will take advise on that and be happy to join the lead to the intro if that would be preferred.
- Blank section removed - not very important in the overall view.
- Reduced year links to a bare minimum. I hope dates are now not "under-linked".
- Rephrased the "up to 2006/2007" per suggestion.
- Added emdash for the one date range.
- Reformatted several subheadings as bold text so they don't appear in the TOC and now the TOC is more compact, especially "Postage dues" ww2censor 21:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, but "Absolutely correct Fair use in article Postage stamps of Ireland." is not a valid fair use rationale. You have to say why it qualifies for fair use under Wikipedia's Non-free content criteria. Please see Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline. As for the lead, Wikipedia:Lead section says that the lead should be able to serve as a stand-alone summary of the article. Do you feel this is the case? It's much better without the numerous year links, but full dates should be linked to allow date formatting, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). The "since [date]" is better, but I still see the word now being linked to June 2007. This needs to be fixed also. Date ranges take en dashes, not em dashes. I didn't see the one you updated, but I saw a range that needs an en dash that didn't have one. The table of contents is better, but still needs work. You've got 19 primary sections—more than the primary and secondary headings of World War II combined! This is most likely indicative of a need for restructuring. Pagrashtak 14:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- 2nd follow up, You are a hard task master but I appreciate that. Sometimes noticing the small things too is what this is about.
- According to fair use of stamps they must be "For identification of the stamp or currency, not its subject" and that is the case for all the images that are actually stamps, not labels. Also I refer to the Irish statutes for Irish Government copyright that states "Government copyright in a work shall expire 50 years from the end of the calendar year in which the work was made." So perhaps those images older than 50 years should be made into {{PD-stamp}}. I have also asked another, well experience administrator and philatelic editor to review the images in the article for me, so I will defer on those for the moment and leave you a post when I have revised the licensing, with fire-use rational or an other licence, depending on his suggestions. Do you suggest that I use the {{Non-free media rationale}} template anyway? Image licensing will be acceptable.
- Based on your suggestions regarding the TOC I have revised the sections to make more sense and reduce their number, moving around a few sections to make more sense IMHO. There are now only 7 main sections, four with subsections. As part of the TOC revision I have pulled most of the "intro" out into the lead section and feel it stands better than before giving a good overview of the topic. One problem I have is with the image placement in the lead section. Any advise on that?
- Dashes - I think I have found them all and edited as suggested.
- All full dates have been linked and all solo year dates unlinked.
- Found the last linked "now" date problem.
- ww2censor 17:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- All image licences have been revised in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines and copyright of the images. There should now be no issue with them. ww2censor 01:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
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- 3rd follow up I think I reintroduced several dashes during my inline citation edits and forgot to alter them.
- The lead has been expanded.
- I think I found all the dashes now and replaced them with ndashes, if not, please tell me exactly where they are because they are hard to spot.
- The postage due and the stamp issuing authorities sections have been compressed without removing contents, so I hope you feel they flow better. Several of the subsection could be expended but only with detail that I don't think belongs here. Most of the sections have complete catalogues written about them, but this is not a catalogue, so unless I was to pad the sections I don't think there is much else I can add without seeming to be catalogue like. Each section in necessary and I cannot see a way of combining them without losing the individuality they require. More specific advise would be appreciated on how to achieve the layout you envision if it still lacks the construction you think appropriate.
- Thanks for the input. ww2censor 00:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- 3rd follow up I think I reintroduced several dashes during my inline citation edits and forgot to alter them.
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Comment: I did find some minor copyedits which I fixed myself. The article seems generally to be thorough, comprehensive and well-referenced, with nice graphics, and I will be happy to support the nomination if the following can be addressed:
- Criterion 2d requires "consistently formatted inline citations" and I'd like to see a few more of these. I understand that for a subject like this there may be a lot of material coming from a handful of books, but I think five inline refs is too few.
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- Done - There are now 30 inline citations, hopefully not too many but I think I have covered all the statements that might be questioned.
- In the Overprints section it states: "These stamps were issued and in use in Great Britain between 1912 and 1922." I assume this refers to the original GB issues without the overprinting? If so, this should be clarified.
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- Done - copyedited to clarify. The un-overprinted stamps were issued and in use in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland between 1912 and 1922 and continued in use in Great Britain and Northern Ireland until 1936
- In the Definitives section it states: "Some series changes are not just design changes but utilise a different watermark..." This is unclear to me; it implies to me that a watermark change alone would not count as a series change, but the article only seems to describe six designs (original, Gerl (should these be 1968-9?), Craig/Wildbur, Heritage/Treasures, Birds, Flowers). Is this because high-values have been counted separately, or should it say something like "Two series changes involved only a change of watermark, but six involved complete design changes..."?
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- Done - copyedited to clarify. Two series changes involved only a change of watermark, but six involved a complete redesign, or changes necessary due to currency changes; sterling to decimal, and decimal to Euro. (I would love to rephrase with less use of the word "changes". Any ideas?)
- Later in that section, "The first definitives where all values were printed in full colour and many different values were issued until stamps featuring flowers native to the Woodlands and Hedgerows of Ireland were issued on September 9, 2004." I'm unsure what this means; should it say "The first definitives where all values were printed in full colour were issued on September 9, 2004, featuring flowers native to the Woodlands and Hedgerows of Ireland."?
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- Done - copyedited to clarify. Irish birds feature in the 1997 stamps that span the changes of currency used from the Irish pound, through dual currency issues to the introduction of the Euro. These were the first definitives where all values were printed in full colour. On September 9, 2004, a new series was issued, featuring flowers native to the Woodlands and Hedgerows of Ireland.
- In the "Collecting" section, "more in response to a view of profit rather than the real function of the postal service" (and the section following that: this sounds like a POV (though I suspect it may be a valid one!). Can you provide an inline reference to substantiate this claim, which An Post might want to deny!
I love the picture of the watermark! Walkerma 07:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Done - removed possible POV text as I cannot immediately find a source.
- Follow up Thanks for the input. I like all of the copyedits that are mainly clarity and grammar related. And I though I could speak decent Hiberno-English! Thanks.
- One small issue is the addition of a "the" before ESB who I know prefer to NOT use a definite article in front of the name; as in, ESB, not the ESB, but I would let that go from a normal grammar point of view as it might be considered WP:NOR.
- I will try to address the other issues you mention in the next 24 hours if possible. I was wondering about the number of inline references but was worried about having too many to the same sources. One question in that regard. If I put a book in an inline ref, should it still be listed in the general reference material?
- Again thanks, I will leave you a message when I have addressed all your mentioned concerns. ww2censor 13:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, I don't like dozens of cites from the same book, but sometimes it can be useful to have a few, at least. I confess to getting confused myself, the rules have changed so much (and there are different styles too!), but I'd suggest having two sections, as used in a recent FA, Mary of Teck (which you could perhaps emulate). I don't think you need 62 inline, though! The inline cites are mainly needed IMHO for (a) key pieces of information (like the date An Post began) and (b) controversial statements. One good way to look at it is to imagine someone else inserting the fact (and pretend you didn't know the fact) - would it look unsubstantiated, or seem like vandalism? Inline cites can also be helpful for very specific facts such as "There were XXYY Irish stamps released during the 20th century". You can put in different pages from the same book as footnotes; if you want to cite the same pages multiple times, use the ref name system (see Daspletosaurus refs 1, 7, 8). I usually take a look at what the newest FAs look like, see this list, and copy the best of what they do. If you need help with formatting, let me know. Walkerma 16:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- 2nd follow up Again thanks Walkerma for the input. I have annotated the specific issued mentioned individually. I understand you comment about too many citations from the same book and the worst I have is 4 from one book so hope that is not a problem. I looked some of the recent FAs to see the styles used and hopefully I have absorbed enough. I just wish I knew if there was a way of combining references to the same source when different pages are being referred to, not just several references to the exact same citation. Would appreciate your comments on the citations as well as the copyedits. It surprises me that no one else has weighed in on this yet. Is there a way to encourage people to get involved? Cheers & again thanks. ww2censor 04:32, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Support: All of my concerns have been very carefully addressed in admirable fashion, and I believe the article now meets the criteria. Thanks for taking the time to polish this article. Nice work. Walkerma 05:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Object—It's better. Polish? No, it fails 1a without a doubt. Let's look at the top.- "issued by the stamp issuing authority"—oh ... can't we avoid this repetition in the opening sentence? And I didn't want to find another repetition in the very next sentence: "Ireland, Ireland". Then stamps, stamps, stamps, and other reps, including stamps, stamp, stamps again. I'm not saying that words can't be repeated, but it is an unfortunate feature of the text right throught the lead.
- Pity the opening para is one sentence.
- "chose to overprint the existing British stamps, with Irish text, to provide"—Does it flow better without the first comma? Remove the comma before "notable".
- "as well as with the production of eight designed series in the intervening years; nine series in all." These last four words are stuck at the end like a shag on a rock. The choice of a semicolon is questionable (an em dash would be better, but consider recasting?)
- Remove "many" and "some". When you say "were also produced", in addition to what? (Unclear.)
- "Styles of watermark"—pipe to the singular.
- "Irish-issued"—hyphen please, as for "stamp-issuing authorities".
I haven't even finished the lead; there's enough to occupy several good copy-editors for hours throughout the text. These were only examples. Tony 15:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- Follow up It's unfortunate, for me, that you concentrated exclusively on the lead because I just expended the lead a few days ago at the suggestion of User:Pagrashtak who reviewed this WP:FAC first. Anyway, Since your comments, I have copyedited it based on your comments and have done the same for the rest of the article and hope your critical eye will not be displeased.
- You are correct about the excessive use of the word stamp/s, but what other word is there to use? Unless you are an experienced philatelist you would not know the term adhesive label as an alternative, but I have tried to reduce its use as much as possible. Other words that reappear often are: issue or issued and series, but again I have tried to reduce their use and vary the words and make their use less repetitive.
- Revised the one sentence first paragraph
- Recast the "nine series" sentence
- "Were also produced" has been clarified with additional explanatory text
- In my copyedit I have attempted to address all your comments about the lead - hopefully the initial bad taste you got has been tempered, if not gone, and you can give the article, with the revised lead, your once over even if you do have some critical yet constructive suggestions at the end.
- Thanks for your time ww2censor 03:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Support. I got interested in this one and spent a bit of time working on the copyediting. I hope it's a lot cleaner now, with some paragraphs a bit clearer. I can't judge the content, so this is perhaps not a very strong support, but I think it's well-structured and appears thorough, and is sufficiently well-cited. I think the prose is professional though not brilliant. Overall a fine article. Mike Christie (talk) 03:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Further comment to my oppose—I disagree with the previous reviewer: the prose is barely acceptable and not professional. I took a sample from the middle: "Postage stamps: Overprints". I shouldn't be so easily able to find glitches if this is promotable.
- "... in United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland between 1912 and 1922 and continued in use in Great Britain and Northern Ireland until ...." Why do we need the same link twice in same article, let alone the same two lines? Isn't it the United Kingdom of ...?
- "the final, high value, stamps were issued."—Remove the comma after "value" and hyphen "high value" (see MOS).
- "In 1922, as an interim measure, before the first specially designed definitives were ready, a series of ..."—Remove the halting, unnecessary comma after "measure".
- Second para, Feldman states (direct quote)—attribution please.
- "Several specialised philatelic books and exhibits have concentrated on this topic." "Several" isn't very encyclopedic. Either name a few as examples, provide the number ("at least three") and/or provide a reference.
- Third para—"The Provisional Government of Ireland (Irish Rialtas Sealadach na hÉireann) overprints were initially issued on February 17, 1922 with eight low value and three high value stamps being overprinted by Dollard and four stamps overprinted by Thom." Again, hyphens required (and there's another required in the subsequent para—you locate it). Why is "Irish" in italics (twice)? "Being" is ungrammatical and awkward; remove it?
This article should be an FA, but can't be until fresh eyes go through it and fix up the prose. Tony 11:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Oppose Some prose problems.
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- "Registered envelopes have appeared in many different values and sizes." - "different" is redundant, "have appeared in many different values" is ungrammatical
- "Between 1963 and 2000 a small number of philatelically influenced items are known produced by six different users."
- "Stamps of the period may have the watermark in any of several different states of inversion" - "in any state of inversion" may be better
- "1922-23 First Definitive Series" - en dash needed
- "1 shilling airmail stamp - Vox Hibernia" - en dash needed
- Judging by a Google search, "un-overprinted" is usually unhyphenated
- Full dates in the footnotes should be wikilinked. Epbr123 00:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Follow up: Thanks Epbr123 for the comments. I have corrected all the prose problems you mentioned, except for the Vox Hibernia en dash. Nowhere have I seen an en dash used for this. Neither the stamps themselves (look at the image in full size), nor ANY of the Irish stamp catalogues used as sources in the article show an en dash. Also a newsletter (06/2006 issue 13) produced by the current stamp issuing authority, An Post, has two pages given over to the airmail stamps. It does not use an en dash either. You can view the pdf here or link to it from this web page. Hope you agree with that veiwpoint but I would consider changing it if you convince me. If you see any other problems please let me know. Thanks ww2censor 02:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Dashes, either an unspaced em dash or a spaced en dash should be used. The same applies to this sentence: "The designs feature the Flight of the Angel Victor - Messenger of St. Patrick - carrying the Voice of the Irish Vox Hibernia" Epbr123 10:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Follow up
- I am not sure what your specific concern is about the TOC and image layout. After re-reading the WP:LEAD but cannot see anything that the current setup contravenes. Please explain more fully.
- Bold book titles have been revised per WP:MOSBOLD.
- The external links could possibly have the catalogue publishers removed but besides those I cannot justify removing any others. Do you agree? (before I actually remove any)
- Dashes have been reviewed and edited as appropriate. If I have missed any please let me know.
- The prose objections are nearly finished. Just one specific concern needs checking before finishing (hopefully) final edits.
- Thanks for the review. ww2censor 04:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
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- On the TOC and the image, WP:LEAD says, "The table of contents... appears between the lead section and the first headline;" WP:MOS#Images says "Start the article with a right-aligned image. " The layout of your lead is non-standard, as you've forced the TOC to the right and the image to the left.
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- I have moved the TOC to the left and image to the right, BUT, I think it looks terrible. The image belongs that bit further down the lead where it was and now there is a huge white space between the TOC and the right margin which really irritates me, but if MOS guidelines require it to be this way, then so be it. I prefer the previous layout !
- On External links, I do believe you should lower the linkage to stamp catalogues, per WP:EL, WP:RS and WP:NOT. Are any of those sites commercial ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, actually they are commercial sites, but who else makes stamp catalogues except stamp catalogue publishers? However, most are wikilinked in the article itself so that should suffice so they are gone
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Another tip: your footnotes are made harder to read than necessary by the repeated information. It's only aesthetics, but they will be more readable (and your article will be more editable) if you change this (sample):
- ^ Feldman, David (1968). Handbook of Irish Philately. Dublin, Ireland: David Feldman & the Dolman Press, p 22.
- ^ Feldman, David (1968). Handbook of Irish Philately. Dublin, Ireland: David Feldman & the Dolman Press, p 21.
to this, throughout (sample):
- ^ Feldman (1968), p 22.
- ^ Feldman (1968), p 21.
This will also shorten the article in edit mode, making it easier to edit, as you can use the cite templates once only (in the Sources); cite templates really chunk up article size. This is not an objection: just a suggestion.
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- Funnily enough I was going to combine these two Feldman ref, as they irritated me too, into one ref because they are sequential pages, but this is one of the few refs that follow one another in the {{reflist}}. I might take on the suggestion and do a reduced ref for those that are listed in the sources.
- Actually for now, I don't think so. I had a look at reducing the inline refs per your suggestion but as I am using the cite book tags, this requires the title in each tag, it think all the references need to be rewritten completely to achieve that layout, so for now I think I will leave them alone and remember for the future. As you said, it is a suggestion not an objection, so that's it for the moment. Thanks ww2censor 21:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Struck everything, a few minor notes left on your talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
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- It's much better written now (particularly the reduction in irritating repetitions), and I won't stand in the way of promotion. But I do find little issues still. Such as ...
- What is a "semi-state" organisation? I'm suspicious that this is really code for a restructured organisation still under total control of the state. If it's governed by an act of parliament, and is not privately capitalised, it's a state organisation. Can you clarify?
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- I found a wikilink to clarify this.
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- "The spelling ERIE for ÉIRE could be due to hasty preparation though this is a correct, old Irish, spelling." "may have been due to hasty preparation, although this is ?the correct ..." (Please note the changes; in particular, was there one old I spelling, or a number: "a" or "the"?)
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- Rephrased to clarify
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- "had control of" = "controlled".
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- Done
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- "nine Irish definitive stamp series"—definitive? Is this a standard philatelic term? Ah, I think it is, so I hope it's glossed on first occurrence ...
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- This is linked in the 3rd sentence of the lead.
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- There's a lot of "due to". Tony 09:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
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- I will reduce incidence of "due to" later today.
- There is still one issue from your previous comments that I want to address. It is the "Several specialised philatelic books and exhibits have concentrated on this topic." sentence.
- Thanks for taking the time to review. ww2censor 14:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Revised the instances of "due to". Also rewrote "Several specialised philatelic books" and removed exhibits as I cannot immediately verify exhibits, so could be regarded as POV. ww2censor 04:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Weak opposeThe final section, about stamp collection, is severely undercited, as there are only three citations in 4 (or 5, if you count the single sentence) paragraphs. There are passages about the history of commemorative stamps that, for all I know, are completely made up. Two full paragraphs have no references at all. -- Kicking222 20:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Follow up: Have added some extra inline citations for this section. Hope you approve. Any other issues please post here. Thanks ww2censor 03:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- Change to weak support. As mentioned above, the prose is not perfect, but now that my main issue has been mostly resolved (that last paragraph is still uncited, but there's not much that really has to be cited- with that said I would prefer something there), I think the prose is sufficiently decent, in combination with the other aspects of the article, to warrant featured status. -- Kicking222 12:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- Follow up: Have added some extra inline citations for this section. Hope you approve. Any other issues please post here. Thanks ww2censor 03:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:04, 31 July 2007.
You Only Move Twice
Just came aross this while browsing. Thought it looked very impressive.Buc 06:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm one of the main contributors to the page, and this nom stunned me. I think it needs work in its present form, so I'll see what I can do. I'll address any concerns about the page, but it is modelled after Cape Feare and Homer's Phobia, both of which are featured articles. -- Scorpion0422 06:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think some mention of the plot is required in the lead: would that need a cite? Alientraveller 09:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - Most immediate thing that comes to mind, the lead section does not meet lead criteria. You might want to read Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Lead section. BIGNOLE
(Contact me) 11:26, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Something here annoys me, and it's bugged me ever since I passed the GAC. Wouldn't it better to have a screenshot of the Simpsons' kitchen rather than the "eh" of the Globex employees? Alientraveller 20:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
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- It's just the image in the production section is one whole "eh"? I'd prefer an image of the kitchen, considering it is modelled on a real one. Alientraveller
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OpposeSupport -Please redo the section on leads. In addition, I feel the references need work. Specifically, you don't need a reference (especially the same one) for every sentence, merely every claim. For example you don't need Blah blah blah.2 Blah blah blah.2 Blah blah blah.2 when Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah.2 will suffice.In addition, I feel this article could use some more images (only 2?). On top of that, the prose isn't exactly the best. In short, it seems like a nice article, but doesn't quite satisfy the merits of a Featured Article. — BQZip01 — talk 21:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Any image that could be included would be fair use, and we are trying to limit the number of fair use images on the page. We've been trying to hunt down a free one of Albert Brooks (Hank Scorpio) to no avail. As for the references, I was basically trying to get citation for every fact that could otherwise be seen as POV/OR. The lead is modelled after other Simpsons episode FAs, but I'll clean it up where I can and I'll do what I can for the prose. -- Scorpion0422 21:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough on the images, but I still think that there could be more images (I understand limiting fair use stuff, but I believe the lack of images detracts from the articles). If we disagree, we disagree. As for the lead, wow. I can't imagine what I was thinking when writing that. What I meant to say was to read the article on how leads should be done. The big thing is that everything in the lead should later be mentioned in the article and, therefore, needs no references. — BQZip01 — talk 03:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- All cites are clear from the lead. Also I find it hilarious that you used the link to my talk page to represent a reference, very good. Gran2 15:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I had to use something to demonstrate my point; thought you might find it amusing if you ever caught it. :-)
- The problem is not the fact that the lead's citations are bad in some way, but that it has them at all. IAW Wikipedia:Lead section, "since the lead summarizes the main text (which will be referenced), supplying citations in the lead as well is an unnecessary duplication" It has been fixed by Scorpion0422. Accordingly, it now has my support, but I feel that the text could certainly be more compelling and an additional fair use image would contribute to the article. — BQZip01 — talk 15:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- All cites are clear from the lead. Also I find it hilarious that you used the link to my talk page to represent a reference, very good. Gran2 15:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough on the images, but I still think that there could be more images (I understand limiting fair use stuff, but I believe the lack of images detracts from the articles). If we disagree, we disagree. As for the lead, wow. I can't imagine what I was thinking when writing that. What I meant to say was to read the article on how leads should be done. The big thing is that everything in the lead should later be mentioned in the article and, therefore, needs no references. — BQZip01 — talk 03:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Any image that could be included would be fair use, and we are trying to limit the number of fair use images on the page. We've been trying to hunt down a free one of Albert Brooks (Hank Scorpio) to no avail. As for the references, I was basically trying to get citation for every fact that could otherwise be seen as POV/OR. The lead is modelled after other Simpsons episode FAs, but I'll clean it up where I can and I'll do what I can for the prose. -- Scorpion0422 21:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment I'm on the borderline of casting my "vote" as not supporting this article. The major problem I'm having is the line: He works for a Steve Jobs-esque boss named Hank Scorpio who, unbeknownst to Homer, is an Ernst Stavro Blofeld style supervillain. Is there any reference for the article's claim is that Scorpio is a "Steve Jobs-esque" because that is merely an opinion. --Souphanousinphone 02:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Also, I want to add is that is it necessary to mention IGN in the intro? The Cape Feare and Homer's Phobia's article intros mention the Emmy awards because it is the United States' television industry major award. While, IGN is just some popular website that targets certain demographics which are usually teenagers up to 30 something males. --Souphanousinphone 03:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
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- If you had read the article, you would have seen that there is a similar statement in the production section. Scorpio is compared to both Steve Jobs and Blofield in the DVD commentary by Josh Weinstein. -- Scorpion0422 03:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- We shouldn't be specific with awards one in the lead anyway. It may be an American show, but it's broadcast in other locations, and since this is an english Wikipedia and not the American Wikipedia, we shouldn't give preference to these awards in the lead. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 03:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you had read the article, you would have seen that there is a similar statement in the production section. Scorpio is compared to both Steve Jobs and Blofield in the DVD commentary by Josh Weinstein. -- Scorpion0422 03:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
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- Comment Also, I want to add is that is it necessary to mention IGN in the intro? The Cape Feare and Homer's Phobia's article intros mention the Emmy awards because it is the United States' television industry major award. While, IGN is just some popular website that targets certain demographics which are usually teenagers up to 30 something males. --Souphanousinphone 03:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support - I just realized that was capable of supporting the page because I didn`t nominate it. It`s come a long way since the nom and I think it is much better than it was. -- Scorpion0422 19:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support Ratings would be nice and it seems that the reception section is made up of opinions from the show's crew. In the "Plot" section, it says, "Homer does an excellent job of motivating his team, but notices that they are starting to get overworked. He decides to motivate them by buying them hammocks..." It might be better to say, "Homer notices that they are starting to get overworked. He decides to motivate them by buying them hammocks..." --thedemonhog talk • edits 19:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted 21:04, 31 July 2007.
Kaziranga National Park
Well written, comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and stable. Amartyabag, Pradiptaray, Nichalp, Dwaipayanc and others have done a wonderful job. Nicely referenced and nicely laid out with good images, and reads nice too. If there are any minor issues that need to be solved, we can address them here pretty very quickly. Aditya Kabir 13:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC) It is a national park and a World Heritage Site in Golaghat and Nagaon districts of Assam, India. Two-thirds of the world's Great One-horned Rhinoceroses live in the park. Kaziranga has the highest density of tigers among protected areas in the World and was declared a Tiger Reserve in 2006. The park has large breeding populations of Elephant, Water Buffalo and Swamp Deer. Kaziranga is recognized as an Important Bird Area by Birdlife International for conservation of avifaunal species. I ask every wildlife interested person and for further conservation of critically endangered rihnos to support this article and to correct minor sentence problems themselves if possible. Amartyabag TALK2ME 05:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Support - Well documented and informative article.Deserves to be a FA. - P.K.Niyogi 09:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Mild Oppose— To me the "Etymology" section seems awkwardly written, and does not satisfy 1(a) of the FA criteria. It needs a re-write and some paragraph breaks. The first paragraph of the lead also seems to lack a natural flow, and reads like a concatenation of a bulleted list. There are one or two minor punctuation/grammar issues in the text that I'm sure will be cleaned up, and the use of the phrase "took off" to describe a career appears to be vernacular. Other than that, the article seems pretty decent. — RJH (talk) 14:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have cleaned up the etymology section and tried to make it more presentable. Can you please have a look and give feedback?-Deepraj | Talk 16:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - These sentences could be better phrased
"Grasslands dominate the western reaches of the park which are typically at a lower altitude than the eastern end, with tall elephant grass on the higher ground while the short grasses cover the lower grounds surrounding the bheels or flood created ponds."1"After a decreasing trend for past few years, six one-horned rhinoceroses were killed by poachers in the early 2007, with a report establishing links for funding the Islamic militant groups in Bangladesh connected to Al Qaida."
